So glad you'all are throwing a few bones to the dogs PIPs: Sanctus, Agnus Dei, ST THEODULPH.

While it contains a lot of very fine music, this program is not to be praised. It's a shameful repudiation of Sacrosanctum Conciium, and hardly indicative of someone who is "a very liturgically minded fellow."

Fr. Ron, please explain your comments in greater detail. I am interested to know why you assert this?

But what if the 'people in the pews' like this music? What if they are participating fully, actively, and consciously by partaking of it and being blessed by it? The people in the pews are sometimes like children, meaning that they don't know that the music they are hearing and singing is in a negative category until someone poisons the water and manages to tell them it is... and lies to them by telling them it isn't Vatican II.

MJO, you miss my point. It's not a question of the PIPs "liking" the music that's been programmed or actively listening to it. They are not participating with their own voices.

I know absolutely nothing about the music sung in your own parish. I don't know if you have ever posted any of your orders of worship on this forum or elsewhere. But I can guess that if you gave your own PIPs only 3 items to sing on a regular basis (or even 5 items, as matthewj just corrected me - thanks, matthewj), your PIPs would not be too happy, even if they "liked" what your choir was singing.

Fr. Ron, I was not trying to be argumentative or anything like that, I was just trying to figure out where you were coming from so I can grow as a musician in the Church.

Knowing the Cathedral's tradition as Matthewj has pointed out above, I do not see an issue.

If he were programing this at our local praise and worship community church. There might be an issue but even then a little historical lesson of the Mass and how it used to be or should be done is not a bad thing even in those situations.

I am a person who believes that most musicians and DM's and Lit Directors and some priests have taken the docs of Vatican II to the extreme. I do not see that active participation means that everyone needs to say and / or sing everything all the time, and that listening is also active participation as St. John Paul II, Pope Emeritus Benedict, Arch Bishop Sample and many, many others have stated.

I do appreciate views that are different than mine however, and I am always searching for the truth as hopefully we all are. It is why I am Catholic in the first place. I was searching for the truth and I found it.
The same goes for music and the interpretation of the documents.

This is not exactly the topic of this thread so I will leave it at that.

As more and more information has become available about matthewj's order of worship for June 29:
1. I publicly apologize to the newly-ordained priest who I initially and incorrectly understood as choosing the music for that Mass and which led to my saying that said music programming was "hardly indicative of someone who is 'a very liturgically minded fellow.'"
2. I publicly thank matthewj for what he is doing to foster and preserve the Church's treasury of Gregorian chant.
3. I thank matthewj as well for later saying that the PIPs will also sing all the dialogues at the June 29 Mass. However, if those dialogues are the most important things that the people sing at Mass and, given the fact that they still are not sung in the great majority of parishes throughout the USA (and the world), why aren't they noted on the order of worship?
4. There will continue to be serious disagreements, IMO, about the understanding of "active participation." TDPelletier's quoting Benedict XVI saying, "active participation of the whole people of God in the liturgy does not consist only in speaking, but in listening..." is no justification for taking the speaking (singing) role away from the PIP's and telling them to be satisfied with listening.
5. I still fault the Phoenix order of worship for providing no singing by the PIPs during the communion procession (poor modeling for the entire diocese, IMO), and I see no reason why a Gregorian Kyrie and Gloria are not used, so that the PIPs may participate with their voices.
6. I LOVE Kathy's "Sing All the Things." But, Kathy, counting the dialogues as "items to sing" may be using the wrong measurement. A congregation which sings only one four-stanza hymn at Mass sings at least twice as long as a congregation which sings all the dialogues.

I thank matthewj as well for later saying that the PIPs will also sing all the dialogues at the June 29 Mass. However, if those dialogues are the most important things that the people sing at Mass and, given the fact that they still are not sung in the great majority of parishes throughout the USA (and the world), why aren't they noted on the order of worship?

Because they are ALWAYS sung at the Cathedral in Phoenix, and matthewj has a slightly lazy (in the computer programmer sense) approach to typing up orders of worship.

and I see no reason why a Gregorian Kyrie and Gloria are not used, so that the PIPs may participate with their voices.

This is done at most Masses at the Phoenix Cathedral. But choral settings are a legitimate option, particularly for an especially notable celebration such as this one.

Trying to sing throughout the communion procession is another case where the bishops (as in GIRM) put the cart several blocks in front of the horse. It rarely works.

It rarely works if you're trying to sing strophic hymns. It works quite well if the PIPs are singing only an antiphon and a psalmist or the choir sings the verses.

Fr. Krisman:

"4. There will continue to be serious disagreements, IMO, about the understanding of "active participation." TDPelletier's quoting Benedict XVI saying, "active participation of the whole people of God in the liturgy does not consist only in speaking, but in listening..." is no justification for taking the speaking (singing) role away from the PIP's and telling them to be satisfied with listening."

There is no logical conclusion to this kind of argument. How much listening is too much? There is no way to objectively quantify this. So any time there is a mix of listening and singing on the part of the PIPs, there is going to have to be a pastoral judgment about the proper balance. It's not something that can be judged from across the country - it depends on the traditions, formation, and habits of that particular community.


"5. I still fault the Phoenix order of worship for providing no singing by the PIPs during the communion procession (poor modeling for the entire diocese, IMO), and I see no reason why a Gregorian Kyrie and Gloria are not used, so that the PIPs may participate with their voices."

This trope of the people singing at communion is sooo tired and beaten to death already. There is a tension in the GIRM on this matter. The fact is, the Church's current liturgical legislation both holds out unity of voices as an ideal during communion, and explicitly allows for choral music during communion. I believe this is a healthy balance, rather than a flat out contradiction, but some (e.g. Paul Inwood, who routinely crusades on this matter) hold that any choral singing during communion is an abuse - the GIRM be damned! At any rate, the fact is that the Church's current liturgical legislation allows for choral singing at communion. The judgment call about how/when to use this option and how/when to balance it with congregational singing of some kind must be made on the ground in a particular community. ALSO, it is important to remember that a single community may have a single Mass with more of a choral emphasis. At my cathedral, we have congregational communion singing at 4 out of 5 Masses. And at the 5th, during choir season, the choir takes over. To call the following of the Church's current legislation an abuse and bad modeling for the diocese is false and uncharitable on your part Father.


"6. I LOVE Kathy's "Sing All the Things." But, Kathy, counting the dialogues as "items to sing" may be using the wrong measurement. A congregation which sings only one four-stanza hymn at Mass sings at least twice as long as a congregation which sings all the dialogues. "

And yet, a congregation that sings JUST hymns and no dialogues has been entirely cheated of singing any of the liturgy. They've been relegated to singing pious background music during processions, just like at the preconciliar Low Mass. Is the amount of time filled or the integral nature of the text to the liturgy a better marker of participation?

As far as having "more items to sing" - we have 4 English sung Masses each week with similar (but different) music.

Dear Father Krisman,
MJM's reminder/rejoinder above ought to have been present in your mind before hitting the "post comment" button, in all honesty. Of all people, you should know that a cathedral Mass schedule, as well as many parishes such as mine with 18 Masses per weekend, by nature have to cover the participatio actuosa spectrum thoroughly. This reality existed prior to and after V2 and will likely remain in praxis for the life of Mother Church.
I happily presume that the sarcasm of throwing bones to dogs was just Monday crankiness. But to mischaracterize MJM's intentions in such a demeaning way toward him and the faithful in PHX actually reflects upon neither of them, but upon you. I'd take care of that, were I you.
This whole business of applying SC slide rule excerpts is becoming increasingly tired. I, a boomer, had two boomer missionary priests as celebrant/homilists over the whole weekend. When checking with me regarding ordo of music, I basically said to both at different times, we sing everything except the "Our Father." The first priest replied "It's not supposed to be sung." Let it go. Second priest, a capuchin, said virtually the same thing, adding "Good, it should be prayed." I had time, so I took the opportunity to remind him of SC's three heirarchies of what ought first to be sung: for the celebrant- the dialogues/orations/collects. FOR THE PIPs-"the Pater Noster, look it up." Happily, he ceded the point.
SC is a tool, not a weapon.

Also, a congregation that sings all the dialogs is singing more of the Mass than a congregation that sings several verses of several hymns because hymns aren't THE MASS.

Here are my selections for this week:
Entrance: "Peter the Apostle, and Paul the Teacher" - LCSG
Entrance Hymn: "Church of God, Elect & Glorious" (HYFRYDOL)
Responsorial Psalm and Alleluia: OCP's Respond & Acclaim
Offertory Antiphon: You Will Make them Princes" - LCSG
Offertory Hymn: "Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones" - (LASST UNS ERFREUEN)
Communion Antiphon: "You are Peter" - LCSG
Communion Hymn: "O Taste and See" - Hurd
Communion Med: "Salve Regina" - GC
Recessional: "By All Your Saints Still Striving" with optional vs. for St. Peter and Paul. - (ST THEODULPH)
Mass Ordinary: Mass of the Angels - Richard Clark (English Adaptation).

Mostly all Dialogues are sung weekly.

St Joseph Church, Strongsville OH

Entrance: K. Pluth's hymn translation Passion of the Apostles, to WINCHESTER NEW

Offertory: Only This I Want, Schutte

Communion: You Are Peter, from A. Esguerra's Choral Graduale Simplex

Recessional: The Son of Man by K. Pluth from canticanova publications (we purchased this) set to ELLACOMBE (vs 1-4)

Cathedral of saint Joseph Sioux Falls sd

Entrance - by all your saints still striving
Offertory - for all the saints
Communion - simple congregational antiphon by me (congregational communion antiphons are great and laudable - just not the only option! Can't we all just get along?) + blessed feasts of blessed martyrs
Recessional - two noble saints

Organ music - depends on how many stops we get tuned this week...

We attempt to sing one of the wretched GIA communion hymns from Ritual Song - given that most of them are unworthy, unsingable dogs.

Are you suffering from a bit of "Monday crankiness" too?

So why are you writing about trying to sing a communion hymn when I was writing about communion psalms? RitualSong contains 173 psalm settings in its psalter section. Certainly, not all of them are unworthy, unsingable dogs, like most of those communion hymns!

But, no, you had the PIPs attempt to sing a wretched communion hymn, and now you've gone sour on the whole idea of the PIPs singing at communion altogether.

So, if you weren't going to have the PIPs attempt to sing a psalm during the communion procession, why did you have them try one of the wretched communion hymns instead of one of the few which are unworthy, unsingable dogs cats?

Right now, I am preparing the following:

Entrance: For All The Saints
Kyrie VIII
Gloria: ICEL
Offertory Hymn: Faith of Our Fathers
Offertory Antiphon: "You will make them princes..." (LCM)
Sanctus: ICEL
Agnus Dei: ICEL
Communion Antiphon: "You are Peter..." (LCM)
Communion Hymn: Apostolorum Passio (transl. by K. Pluth) to ROCKINGHAM
Recessional: Holy God, We Praise Thy Name

Looks like we will be doing:

Entrance: Sing with All the Saints in Glory (HYMN TO JOY)
Mass Ordinary: ICEL Roman Missal Chants
Psalm: 34:5 by Howard L Hughes (WLP collection)
Offertory: Lead Me, Lord by Samuel Sebastian Wesley
Communion Proper: R. Rice
Communion Hymn: Heavenly Hosts in Ceaseless Worship (by Noel Tredinnick)
Post Communion Anthem: The Lord Bless You and Keep You - Lutkin (The choir saying goodbye to our retiring pastor)
Recessional: For All the Saints (SINE NOMINE)
Postlude: A. Raison, Sanctus-Plein Jeu, Messe du Deuziesme Ton (short, but they will be out the door before I finish - LOL)

So, if you weren't going to have the PIPs attempt to sing a psalm during the communion procession, why did you have them try one of the wretched communion hymns instead of one of the few which are unworthy, unsingable dogs cats?

Yeesh, you're on a roll today, Padre.
Would it help your sensus fidelium that I confess to you that we sang Toolanbread and Schiavone's "Amen: El Cuerpo de Cristo" at our main Masses?
Man, have a mojito or something, it's hot outside.

Sorry, Melo, but when someone writes that "we attempt to sing one of the wretched GIA communion hymns from Ritual Song" and when this does not go very well he basically signs off from having the PIPs sing at all at communion, and this is somehow directed to me even though I never mentioned singing "hymns" at communion at all, then, yes, I think I have a right to respond.

Please go back and re-read the entire exchange - including the most recent 7:14 PM addition - before declaring who is, and who isn't on a roll.

Our parish has a traditional choir-slot at the Offertory (just like the Methodists). I'm not even sure if in certain views replacing the 4-hymn sandwich with a triple-decker is not an abomination too, but if this is in fact an approved compromise do we infer that Offertoria totious anni is part of the treasury of sacred polyphony while Palestrina's Masses are not?

A congregation which sings only one four-stanza hymn at Mass sings at least twice as long as a congregation which sings all the dialogues.

To draw the logical conclusion and prefer the former seems

hardly indicative of someone who is "a very liturgically minded fellow."

My apologies for rising to the bait; I'm quite willing to cop to Monday crankiness.

Btw it's very enjoyable to hear that my texts are being sung in these fine programs!

I'm basically hanging up my Catholic hat and doing Friedell "Draw us in" and Rutter "God be in my head" along with Mass VIII and the propers, even though it's our patronal feast. #thisiswhathappenswhentheDoMdoesn'tplantheendoftheseasonwell

Yes chonak, I would say that of all the music we sing, the Our Father is loudest and most robust piece we sing. I don't think there is one person in the church that is silent during it.

My own personal preference is to sing a communion chant until most of the congregation have received communion and have returned to the pews, followed by a suitable communion or thanksgiving hymn such as "Soul of My Saviour" or "Let All Mortal Flesh"