Bravo, Adam. If we could only ask the French traditional Catholics what their secret is to the vibrant, focused, attentive participation of their congregations. Much of it, I suspect, lies in an entire underlying culture and way of life. They begin with immersing their children in the Mass and singing Latin chant as tiny tots.

If you have any doubt, watch this video and see how the Catholic Faith is being revived in Europe. Even with all the Church in American has done to appeal to young people--- pop music, LifeTeen Masses, youth groups ad infinitum---they just can't duplicate the energy, enthusiasm and piety of these young European Catholics.

(Caveat: I don't endorse in any way the extra-ecclesial attitude of the SSPX and we have prayed for years as a family that someday soon they will be reconciled with the Holy See since we could all learn a lot from the way the European traditional Catholics "do" the Mass and the Catholic faith.)

BTW, it's amazing to see every year how the Chartres pilgrimage has increased. It's quite thrilling to see Catholics energized and enjoying the Catholic Faith as the greatest adventure of their lives.

Often you just need to find "what works" for your situation.

There are hymns that I have stopped programming because I know that the congregation won't sing them - and this is a congregation that generally does sing well. Sure, I won't stop using a new hymn after the first time; I'll try to do it a couple more times to let them learn it - but if after that they still aren't attempting to get it, I ditch the hymn.

Good, sensitive organ playing helps a LOT. Breathing with them. Things like that.

Simple is better. It sounds so self-evident but it's true.

I do not find that things have to be repeated as much as some think. Last year, we used "Lord You Give the Great Commission" to the tune of Abbot's Leigh for the first time. I played it before mass as the prelude. The people sang it with gusto, and it had never been done in that church before to my knowledge, at least not for the four years that I'd been there. And we only used it on that one week on which it was appropriate. If it's an easy enough hymn, they don't need to be beat over the head with it.

If a parish seemingly does not sing at all, step back and try to find out why. Is the repertoire too hard? Too boring? Too expansive? Do they just have a "low mass" mindset - in which case maybe you should really focus on singing less, and try to get them to sing a few things well.

Congregational singing is one small piece of liturgical music. Do you feel it is the be all end all of measuring success? If the people only sang the responses and the ordinary, wouldn't that be perfect?

If someone started a thread about organ preludes, would you point out that organ preludes aren't the most important thing?

I didn't say, "Let's have a discussion about congregational singing and stop talking about everything else because nothing else matters."

Congregational singing is one key aspect of a healthy musical program. I don't think we're capitulating to ACTIVE PARTICIPATION MEANS DANCING AND CLAPPING if we discuss the how to accomplish it well.

Oh, and we only have one Tradionally minded Mass. The other Masses which add some Happy Clappy stuff have singing at them as well.
I don't know if it is the area we live in, but people just like to sing here.

Hm. The congregation (at one small church) will sing Holy God We Praise Thy Name, O God Almighty Father, and To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King. If I program anything else (with perhaps a few more exceptions) I'll only hear one or two weak voices, if that.

My pastor is not a fan a square notes "yet".

We can probably help you fix that, too.

In my experience there is no 'silver bullet' hymn. My daily Mass congregation is pretty stable, i.e. same people every day: One day they'll sing LAUDA ANIMA with gusto, then a couple weeks later, the same hymn, with the same people, hardly a squeak.

Maybe they're all on an e-mail list? ("Hey guys, don't sing tonight: he's programming DOWN AMPNEY and wants to do a Last Verse!")

The one congregation that I can count on not singing at all, no matter what is programmed, is the 4:00 Saturday "vigil" Mass.

-People like to feel that they're joining in with a group, not competing with an over-amplified soloist; so minimize or eliminate the Cantor and lead with a well-prepared choir instead. If amplification is unavoidable, it can be done well with a choir provided the right equipment and know-how, the resulting impression still being leadership by group rather than soloist. Singing in a congregation led by an over-amplified Cantor gives one the feeling that he is the only other person in the room singing (besides the Cantor), making one feel self-conscious and discouraging singing; singing with a group (even a tastefully amplified one) gives one the sense that he is less exposed, thus less self-conscious, thus more likely to sing out.

-In our Parish we use several settings of the Ordinary (Kyrie/Gloria/Sanctus/Agnus), but rotate them by liturgical season rather than every week. So we stick with one setting for anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks, providing the congregation with a common thread throughout the Mass that is relatively stable over time. Of course the Our Father and other settings remain the same year round as well. With enough material remaining stable from week to week, they seem more willing to attempt the material that does change each week, namely, the hymns.

-I'm a strong proponent of keeping hymns strongly thematically related to the lectionary, and using various online resources I often find hymns more closely linked to the day's readings than those recommended within the covers of a single congregation's hymnal. Or I may find a hymn within our own hymnal with a strong text I'd like to use, but with an unfamiliar tune. In these cases I often note the meter and then use a metrical index to look up tunes of that meter already known to our congregation, and re-set the new text to a tune they already sing with confidence. This is not to say that we sing all our hymns to just a handful of tunes - far from it - but I'd rather not throw the baby out with the bathwater by rejecting a superb text just because I think the congregation will falter on an unfamiliar tune.

But these days the cultural expectation in most of the world, even at the very highest levels, is that people sing something in those slots

Why, oh why, do we have to accept these "cultural expectations"? If this board has any value, it's that the people here are thinking outside of this box - and succeeding. Yet somehow these "slots" are set in stone forever?

I find that having a selection of regular hymns helps, particularly during ordinary time. I find that if congregations know the hymn, they'll sing it.

It may help if you also have a couple of hymns for each liturgical season which make a regular appearance.

I have heard "The Strive is O'er" played in such a manner as encourages singing, and as confuses both choir and congregation. Same for "God of our Fathers".

Yes. Well-said.

Why, oh why, do we have to accept these "cultural expectations"? If this board has any value, it's that the people here are thinking outside of this box - and succeeding. Yet somehow these "slots" are set in stone forever?

I'm hard pressed to find anywhere, including "very traditional" communities and cathedrals/basilicas, certainly in the US, but in most of the world as well, where replacing the congregational singing at the entrance is routinely done. Offertory and Communion, yes. There are places that elect to sing the "hymn of praise" after Communion and can do the proper during Communion. But how many places use SOLEY the Introit in a non-congregational setting?

My own parish DOES on HOLY DAYS (and Ash Wed), but that's it. On those days, we've effectively done what you suggest; the congregation sings the ordinary and a hymn after Communion, and the choir sings the propers. But that's 2-3 nights out of the year. And believe me, some have been QUITE VOCAL about it, making sure that our Pastor knows that they refuse to go to a holy day mass at our church because of it. Fortunately, that is balanced out by some who choose to come because of it. But those holy days are as far as my pastor is willing to push it - and I think with good reason.

During the rest of the year we might chant the introit, but in conjunction with a congregational setting or hymn.

There are some things that I see us making progress on in 10, 25, 35 years. This isn't one of them.

PGA, I think the number of cathedrals/basilicas who have revised the entrance procession has greatly expanded in the past 3-5 years. I'm pretty sure there are at least 2-3 posters here in cathedral jobs that do it.

We do not do it as a rule, but we do the Gregorian introit by itself with verse at least once or twice a season. We just did it with Vocem iucunditatis a few weeks back.

To be clear - you are talking about singing NOTHING CONGREGATIONAL, ONLY the proper, chanted by the schola, after which mass commences, with the congregation not uttering a word until the "Amen" after the sign of the cross?

If so, I salute you; even in our parish, which is quite "traditional," that really wouldn't go over, except, like I said, on sporadic holy days.

Right, PGA. I think it's prudent to occasionally have congregational entrance antiphons, too, and we do that often (again, "standard practice" at the choir Mass is hymn+antiphon.) People here are very open-minded about things liturgical and in general, I think. I'm sure not all of them love it, but the rector is fine with it and knows we are trying to reach a very broad cross-section of the Catholic population here. I think this is part of that effort. The anticipated Mass is our "low church" Mass, if you will, and even then when we only chanted propers (pretty much leaving just the final hymn untouched), people don't seem too upset.

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We chant the Introit every other week using Simple English Propers. We sing an Entrance hymn when we don't sing the Proper. (It's a compromise). We do chant the Communion Proper every week, again from SEP. After the Proper we sing a Communion hymn. We sing an Offertory hymn until the gifts are taken up, at which point a Cantor chants the Offertory Antiphon from the Lalemont Propers.

Our 8:30 congregation joins the schola of one for the Gloria Patri but hasn't had entrance hymns for a decade or more.

We experimented with choral introits one Advent (Scarlatti Ad te levavi, American Gradual Populus Sion, Purcell Rejoice in the Lord alway, Rheinberger Rorate coeli) and the 11:00 people caught on to the verse followed by Gloria Patri, but organ-led hymns keep things together better when the choir is part of the procession, as seems preferable.

I'd be interested in the details of the informal study! We've always announced the first hymn (Our opening hymn is N, title. Please rise as you are able for the procession and lift your voices in song, hymn d-d-d) and relied on people figuring out the rest from the board.

It also means being a bit creative with the hymn selections such as deliberately using shorter hymns for the processional and longer hymns at communion.

You might also be able to push the point home by stopping the organ mid-verse to show them how silly it is just to stop the hymn at the end of the liturgical action.

Does it matter what they sing, as long as they sing? (To put it differently, is "active participation" to be considered above all else?)

I answer this question with a question:

If the people are singing random devotional songs not connected with the sacrifice of the Mass - What, then, are they actually participating in?

The way I understand participation, its opposite is alienation.

There are two common ways of alienating the faithful from the liturgy:
1. Treating them as spectators to a liturgy which is performed by professional clergy.
2. Inviting (goading, cajoling) them into participating in something that isn't the liturgy at all.

Most people who are guilty of one of those tend to accuse everyone who does things differently than they do of being guilty of the other one.

Congregational singing is indicative of a desire to participate. It is the congregation (as a whole, and as a bunch of individuals) trying to participate, attempting to enter into the liturgy.

If NO ONE IS SINGING AT ALL, then there may (MAY) be a need to examine whether there is any desire or ability for the congregation to participate. Do they want to? Do we want them to?

If they are singing their little hearts out, but they are singing something crappy and banal and unconnected to the liturgy - then that is a sign of a congregation that yearns to participate in the liturgy fully. They are doing their part, they are taking the initiative and exerting the energy to walk through the door, but they have been shown THE WRONG DOOR.

Singing is not the only barometer of this, and it also isn't a perfect barometer - but its a good one.

And yes - the interior prayerful participation is the thing. But if a priest chants out to he people "The Lord Be With You" and the congregation mumbles back at him "And lso widyer SPIRITT", how connected do you think that assembly really is to what is going on?

But they

If they are singing their little hearts out, but they are singing something crappy and banal and unconnected to the liturgy - then that is a sign of a congregation that yearns to participate in the liturgy fully.

may just love singing crap. Never over-estimate the power of people who have been nabbed in Renewal Witnessing and had the music chosen by the person witnessing become holy and sacred in the minds of those attending - including the clergy.

The type of aid matters a lot, Chris. I hate having a big screen in our faces. The assembly generally don't sing with the words on a screen in their face. I also hate the big screen covering up statues. It looks out of place anywhere. A smaller musical aid like a book, pamphlet, or handout is better.

The assembly generally don't sing with the words on a screen in their face.

My home parish (that is, the one I grew up in) put projection screens up about 2 years ago. I have been told singing has improved.

On the other hand - this is a congregation that likes to sing, and the previous music director put together these awful worship aides with unreadable fonts. So it might just be that anything at all that is legible will provide them what they need to sing.

My Episcopal parish uses two handouts (seasonal "shell" and weekly "insert"), plus a hymnal. It's confusing unless you know what's going on. The members sing really well, but visitors seem to spend a lot of time trying to find their place.

My.02
It is mostly a cultural problem. We need to have humility as see what our protestant brothers and sisters are doing. Can't we admit that they have been singing congregationally for 300 years and have fully built it into their tradition?
We have had NO tradition of congregational singing in the Catholic church - ok maybe in a few cities in Austria. Then suddenly, after centuries of criticizing the Protestants for singing in the vernacular - The Holy Spirit reveals during Vatican II that we have been doing it all wrong - now, we are all supposed to immediately begin singing like the Baptists next door! Problem: We have no CULTURE OF SINGING.
Here's a story to make my point:
I was invited to sub organ at a midsized Presbyterian church in the city where I live. It was during the summer. When I arrived, the choir director apologized - it was summer and there were only 100 people in the choir. Rehearsal began at 9:30. The director passed out a difficult anthem they had never seen, we rehearsed it for a half hour and they sang it exquisitely at 10:00 service. Now do I need to tell you how well the congregation sang? Of course they took the roof off. This is a fairly typical Presbyterian church of about 2000 members.
We have this ridiculous myth that somehow a wonderful choir 'suppresses' the congregation's voice, or that doing something beautiful and accomplished with the choir is somehow "performance"! This church, like most protestant churches (Might specifically name the Lutherans in this regard) sees no false dichotomy between these two ideas, but fully embraces both and never thinks about it. It's all singing and everyone does it...They hire good organists to lead the singing.
BTW not one professional singer in this choir. Where professional singers need to be hired it is often because there is no culture of singing that the people grow up with, so singing is something that has to be purchased...When you are in a church that has multiple choirs for all ages, and everyone is expected (not embarrassed) to sing in service as they grow up in the parish, it is natural for choirs to form, and would happen even if no professional music director is there...We have not achieved this except in a few places in the Catholic culture. Most men are embarrassed to sing in a Catholic church and few try - because they never have sung in school, never sung in a choir anywhere in their life and it is totally foreign to them. - like asking them to stand up and recite Greek.
Add to this, so much new Catholic music is just impossible to sing and more is being cranked out every day. I think it is ridiculous to ask a congregation - especially Catholic to sing well anything other than a metric hymn or a psalm or introit response. Honestly, so much of this contemporary stuff is just impossible for the people and it alienates them. This Presby church sang metrical hymns -the stuff was ingrained in them and they could sing the stuff while standing on their head cause they have heard the tunes all their life.
THAT's what Tradition is!
Let's face it - almost no one reads music in the parish - they have to KNOW something to SING it.
If we Catholics can nurture a SINGING CULTURE in our parishes - using our common sense to choose repertoire for them, things could change, but it will take generations, perhaps we all are making a good start, and we can hope.
My .02.