Song of the Three Children/Daniel 3:52-55 Holy Trinity Sunday
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    While doing my research for hymn selections for the Feast of the Most Holy Trinity coming up on June 15th, I was intrigued by why this psalm/canticle was entitled "Song of the Three Children". I am using the Guimont psalm setting and I found it in the index under "Song of the Three Children/Daniel 3". If anyone can explain this to me, I would appreciate it. Why song of the three children for a title??
  • billmcjohn
    Posts: 14
    It's from the third chapter of the book of Daniel. Daniel's three companions are cast into a white-hot furnace for refusing to worship an idol. They are miraculously preserved and sing this song.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Church musicians should regularly read the sections of the Bible beyond that which we sing/read on Sundays. Reading a few pages before the actual Scripture to be used at Mass, and a few pages after, will often help you have a greater insight.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Casavant Organist
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbr4yNk19fM
    Thanked by 1Andrew_Malton
  • nycsongs
    Posts: 3
    Some people never miss an opportunity to scold others.
    The reasonable question was, "Why song of the three children for a title??"
    Not "Explain Daniel 3 to me".
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Although Discussion is from 2014 (the previous Year A),
    it has been bumped up.

    This has prompted me to want to discuss
    this scripture as Responsorial Psalm as found in

    OCP Responde y Aclama 2017 [espanol]

    The USCCB scriptures webpage ..
    http://www.usccb.org/bible/lecturas/061117.cfm
    .. has a refrain and a specific chunking of text into 3 verses.

    The OCP version ..
    .. does not have Refrain
    .. does not have verses as specified above.

    It is ..
    .. 5 Estrofas (verses)
    each verse is a scripture fragment
    (or two fragments in which case it underlays the same melody as a repeat)
    .. 5 Respuesta (response, yes singular)
    each response is different text with different syllable counts and rhythms.

    Have others experienced congregation success or trouble with this?

    What is your work-around?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    I wonder if the Spanish version in OCP is taken from the Sunday Morning Prayer (Week 1), because it sounds like a more in alternatum style....

    (Which, in the USA, would probably be OK for the Responsorial Psalm (if *sung*) because it fall within the other translations previously approved by competent authority for liturgical use.)
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Yes, as a musician and former religious chanting texts daily *I* am familiar with alternatim style.

    But alternatim for *Congregations*?
    Most Sundays by the final use of a refrain they barely sing the
    words and correct notes and correct rhythms,
    and then it is so-long-fare-well for three years until the next iteration of the cycle and weekend.

    What hope is there for success when every Verse is followed by a Refrain
    with different words (and the spanish elisions scattered through) and rhythms?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    The plot thickens.

    Bible English
    http://www.usccb.org/bible/daniel/3
    Bible Spanish
    (usccb=none)(vatican=argentina missing vv)(SOciedad BIblica CAtolica INternacional)
    http://sobicain.org/lectura.asp?lib=33&cap=3

    USCCB English Mass (Daniel 3: 52, 53, 54, 55, 56)
    http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/061117.cfm
    * adds a Refrain
    * v56 cited but the text is missing

    USCCB Espanol Mass (Daniel 3: 52, 53, 54, 55, 56)
    http://www.usccb.org/bible/lecturas/061117.cfm
    * adds a Refrain
    * v52 present and the acclamation phrases are absent
    * v53 and v54 are combined and the acclamation phrases are absent
    * v55 and v56 are combined and the acclamation phrases are absent

    Music Implementation

    GIA Guimont
    * incorrectly cites the book as Dt(=Deuteronomy)
    * uses the USCCB Refrain
    * text chunking corresponds with the USCCB Bible and the USCCB Mass
    * v52 verse with acclamation then Refrain
    * v53 verse with acclamation then Refrain
    * v54 verse with acclamation then Refrain
    * v55 verse with acclamation then Refrain
    * v56 missing

    OCP Responde y Aclama 2017
    * ignores the USCCB Refrain
    * text chunking corresponds with the Bible not the USCCB Mass
    * v52 verse fragment then acclamation fragment used as refrain
    * v53 verse fragment then acclamation fragment used as refrain
    * v54 verse fragment then acclamation fragment used as refrain
    * v55 verse fragment then acclamation fragment used as refrain
    * v56 verse fragment then acclamation fragment used as refrain
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    There is hope for introducing alternatim psalm-singing to congregations: I'm told that at St. Paul's in Cambridge, MA, home of the famous choir school, it's done.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Chonak -
    Alternatim?
    How does this work with a congregation?
    What, exactly, are they doing at St Paul's?
    This has been done at vespers at Houston's Annunciation when Felipe Gasper was there.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Perhaps our members who attend there from time to time can add specifics.
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