Hymn and Music Recommendations - CanticaNOVA Publications
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    One reason that OCP and others have succeeded in controlling music in many parishes is not merely by publishing it but even more by mailing out recommendations of what should be sung each Sunday. Many parish musicians fall back on this as their source for planning the music for the parish.

    Many are unaware that there are other sources for guidance.

    Here's an excellent one on a website that offers clear, Catholic direction for music throughout:

    CanticaNOVA Publications
    Thanked by 5Salieri melofluent CHGiffen canadash Jeffrey Coggins
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    This is a good resource, but it's just as good as OCP's magazine or the GIA quarterly; ultimately, those, and this site, are tools. A lazy music director will just go to one of these sources and pick four hymns.

    What I do is look for options to use the propers first: By Flowing Waters, Tietze's introit hymns, Motyka's Communion antiphons. If I don't find something that I want to use from any of those sources, I start looking at Psalms that match the Psalms of the day. If I can't find something there that I want to use, I start looking at hymns. That is when I will go the above resources to jog my imagination on what hymns might have appropriate imagery for the day. And when I'm doing that, I use the CanticaNOVA site, as well as the GIA and OCP magazines. They all have different hymns suggested for different reasons.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    What I do is look for options to use the propers first: ...

    Ummmm, PGA, that's pretty much just what CanticaNOVA suggests, which is why it is such a valuable resource.
    Thanked by 2BruceL Jeffrey Coggins
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I wasn't saying it's NOT a valuable resource. I was emphasizing that it's a TOOL, and that anyone who goes to it and picks four hymns from their hymn list is no better than one who does the same with the OCP guide.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    Okay, point taken. But why would one go to CanticaNOVA just to pick hymns? - they are way down on the list anyway, Propers being listed first, where they should be. I guess some "liturgists" or "church musicians" are just lazy or uninformed.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    it's just as good as OCP's magazine or the GIA quarterly;


    Your statement is absolutely false and misleading. And further discourages people who come here for help to pay any attention to what we are trying to offer.

    Please move your attack on lazy musicians to another post.


    Thanked by 3CHGiffen G Jeffrey Coggins
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Well, I can't agree with PGA that the OCP/GIA digests are on the same par as CN's approach, by a country mile. Penkala's even-handed and thorough (or as Maude Lebowski would say, "Thuh-ruh.") But I agree with Chuck, start with Option Ones, as (ahem) Penkala does.
    Don't think Rendler-McQueeney subscribes to that, I could be wrong (not!)
    Thanked by 1G
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    When was the last time you picked up a copy of Today's Liturgy and read it?

    I can't believe this is controversial.

    OK. Pick your Sunday music off a list. Just use the "right" list, by the right person.

    Like Archie Bunker once said "No, no, he's good. He's against all the right things."
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Gavin
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Your statement is absolutely false and misleading. And further discourages people who come here for help to pay any attention to what we are trying to offer.

    Please move your attack on lazy musicians to another post.


    What do "we offer?" Plugs for another commercial publishing company that isn't GIA or OCP?

    I've gotten a great deal out of the Cantica Nova site. I've also gotten a great deal out of the magazines from the other two. Not that you'd know what's in them; you probably haven't picked up a copy for 10 years.
    Thanked by 2Jeffrey Quick Gavin
  • TCJ
    Posts: 970
    The hymn list on Cantica Nova is also useful for those who are not allowed to use the propers during Mass. I bet there are still quite a few of those music directors around! For me, it's useful because it's hard to keep track of every hymn out there and Cantica Nova is good for jogging the memory.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Not that you'd know what's in them; you probably haven't picked up a copy for 10 years.


    Was that truly necessary? It's one thing to disagree, it's quite another to be disagreeable about it.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    My point was that people argue against all sorts of things that they have no recent experience with.

    Like the people who tell my pastor that they would rather go to another parish than our choir mass because of what the music is like -not that they know, since they haven't been to that mass in over three years.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 970
    Back a number of years, the church I worked for got those quarterly music suggestion lists from OCP. I recall the majority of their suggestions being the common contemporary folksy music that we've all grown to hate. You know: On Eagles Wings, Taste and See, I Am the Bread of Life. Occasionally I'd see something else like Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, but as I said, the majority tended toward the former.

    After a new pastor came, one of the cantors (who liked them for some odd reason) noted that those magazines stopped showing up. Later, the pastor told me that he pitched them, saying (paraphrased): "You know what they say about not being able to judge a book by its cover? Well, that's not true. Those magazines have the ugliest artwork on the front so I just throw them away since I know they aren't any good." In all honesty, I think he's right about that!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    PGA writes:
    you probably haven't picked up a copy for 10 years.

    He is making an assumption about what other people read.

    Later he writes:
    My point was that people argue against all sorts of things that they have no recent experience with.

    which expresses disapproval of making assumptions about what other people publish.

    Ah, well.

    Anyway, as PGA indicates, the big three publishers' magazines aren't all bad. If I remember right, one of the WLP's magazines recently included a column by Kathy Pluth.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    WLP is a bit of a sleeper occasionally.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    He is making an assumption about what other people read.


    which expresses disapproval of making assumptions about what other people publish.


    The first is perhaps an assumption, but it is a VERY reasonable one. Generally when someone trashes something, I assume that they don't like it, and therefore don't look at it, see it, read it, choose to be around it, etc.

    The second isn't about assumptions. FNJ wasn't making assumptions; he was responding to what he's seen from them in the past. As I pointed out above, it's probably a very reasonable assumption on my part to assume that since he hates the periodical so much, he's probably not read the most recent issue nor is he likely to be up to date on all that it offers.

    Finally, I'll state one more time: Yes, I love the CanticaNova site and am grateful for it. I was simply speaking to liturgy guides in general as being tools, not crutches.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    One reason that OCP and others have succeeded in controlling music in many parishes is not merely by publishing it but even more by mailing out recommendations of what should be sung each Sunday. Many parish musicians fall back on this as their source for planning the music for the parish.

    Many are unaware that there are other sources for guidance.

    Here's an excellent one on a website that offers clear, Catholic direction for music throughout:.



    Your statement is absolutely false and misleading. And further discourages people who come here for help to pay any attention to what we are trying to offer.

    Please move your attack on lazy musicians to another post.


    I apologize for so clearly and obviously expressing my "hate" for and also for "trashing" OCP and GIA in the words I have written on this page. I will pick my words much more carefully in the future.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    NJ, I admire your temperance and forbearance.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I hate to bump a thread that (perhaps?) has already caused some hurt feelings, but...

    The difference between tools and crutches (not to mention the fact that I guess a crutch is, by its very definition, a tool!) is mostly in the user.

    I align personally much more with CN's thoughts. I try to pray with all texts when picking music. Then, I'll consult these guides. Here's what I find:

    1) CN helps remind me of another person's ideas of hymns for the day, etc. Often I'll forget that "I know so-and-such-a-hymn".
    2) GIA's planning reminds me how someone with a rather different outlook would think/choose. It challenges me.
    3) I never plan a music schedule without checking (at least) these two sources, because I want to be sure the non-Ordinary/Proper music at the parish isn't just a reflection of my biases.
    Thanked by 5Gavin Jeffrey Quick Andrew Motyka PaixGioiaAmor Adam Wood
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I like CN's recommendations, but they're ultimately no better or worse than any other resource. A list of vaguely-aptus cantus...es. It reminds me of my beginning in church music. My mentor sat me down, showed me the OCP periodical and explained that we pick hymns from what's in there. I said "perhaps we can use (hymn title)?" "No, that isn't in the list."

    Lists are a good start, but you need to evaluate them and think for yourself.

    I'm willing to openly attack lazy musicians. We have no need for them in doing the Lord's work.
    Thanked by 2PaixGioiaAmor M. Jackson Osborn
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Whoa there, Tiger, you were provided a perfect example of indoctrinal dysfunction by your mentor. Now that you can mentor, perhaps you can better evaluate that some musicians simply have not been made aware that the demands of "choosing repertoire" are much more than what's on Elaine's list. In fact, it probably doesn't even occur to them that exercizing their role to decide their choices is subjective, and as someone else mentioned, prone to their own and others' biases.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    You are hired for your biases.
    Thanked by 3irishtenor melofluent francis
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Now that you can mentor, perhaps you can better evaluate that some musicians simply have not been made aware that the demands of "choosing repertoire" are much more than what's on Elaine's list.


    FWIW, what I find more valuable than her actual list is her commentary; yes, I know that she doesn't always seem to think with the mind of the Church and has advocated some things that many find questionable. Still, she will often throw out valuable thoughts for me to chew on as I ponder the readings and propers of the day.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    You are hired for your biases.

    And fired, too.
    Thanked by 2francis noel jones, aago
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I somewhat agree with Noel's comment, but I am likewise sure I was hired for my first full-time job in spite of my biases. I always feel that was a great confirmation that I had chosen wonderful teachers who helped me reach my potential. Any falling short of that was invariably my fault. Although my first job wasn't always the most satisfying endeavor (due to being on a different page than the pastor), it was always respectful and a great learning experience. Plus, many wonderful musicians humored my biases, great friendships were former, great musical experiences (I don't care whether or not they were perfect) were had, and I think we were all the richer for it. I think we should all feel that we learn so much from every job, whether or not we feel it is ultimately successful for us professionally.
  • PhatFlute
    Posts: 219
    Agree too, here.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I think Gavin's point is the best.

    We can't be expected to carry around in our heads everything we've ever heard, learned, or thought of- let alone all the things we haven't heard, learned, or thought of.

    Liturgy-planning and music-suggestion guides/lists are tools. Some are better than others, yes.

    Using a calculator instead of pencil and paper, or a dictionary instead of your own vast knowledge of English spelling, does not make a person lazy.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Adam,

    You're quite correct when you say

    Using a calculator instead of pencil and paper, or a dictionary instead of your own vast knowledge of English spelling, does not make a person lazy.


    Would you agree, to continue the analogy, that if you use a dictionary of Polish, it won't help you spell English words correctly? Would you further agree that colored pencils matter more for their colors than that they are pencils? (Yes, the analogy is intentional, and not merely haphazard or random).

    Cheers,

    Chris

  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Many are unaware that there are other sources for guidance.

    Here's an excellent one on a website that offers clear, Catholic direction for music throughout:

    CanticaNOVA Publications


    And it has come to this...
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    It does seem rather silly to quibble pointlessly with such a mild recommendation, as though it were somehow misleading or inaccurate.

    Anyway....

    I'm willing to openly attack lazy musicians. We have no need for them in doing the Lord's work.

    This is quite a change from my old career, in which the three great virtues of a practitioner were laziness, impatience, and hubris.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Considering the amount of energy spent in the last century or so "improving" the liturgy, I'd be happy with a bit more laziness and a bit less creativity.
    Thanked by 2Ben irishtenor
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,369
    The best recommendations are one's own record of one's own choices. I made choices from scratch (that is without so much as looking at some publisher's suggestions) from the hymnals I have at hand. This entailed a thorough study of the hymnals' contents and their aptness to given Sundays' and solemnities' lectionaries. (There is no better way thoroughly to learn the contents of every stanza of your hymnody!) Doing this for each of the three years means that it only has to be done once. Then one can alter or improve one's choices as the years repeat themselves, but the real work has been done. This is far superior to any publisher's guidelines, mistakes, and biases. Learn from doing your own work.
    (And, Gavin's remarks above are commendable, no need for him to 'hold on, Tiger'.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I highly recommend laziness, since it is nothing more than economy of effort. It isn't necessary to reinvent the wheel every day. Those liturgy guides are like CliffsNotes for liturgy. Does anyone really need them? I find that they suggest hymns my congregation doesn't know and wouldn't sing. I do like Jackson and take the hymnal once a month - yes, I select music for a month, often more - and choose from what the congregation knows and can sing. General praise hymns are great and fill in nicely when the hymnal has a poor selection of hymns for a given calendar event.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    When I chose music for a vernacular Mass, I never used these guides. (I followed Jackson Osborn's method without knowing it was his.)

    Does the use of these guides narrow, rather than broaden the knowledge of a Director of Music/choir/liturgy committee or parish?

    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Does the use of these guides narrow, rather than broaden the knowledge of a Director of Music/choir/liturgy committee or parish?


    That depends on how they are used.

    BAD:
    Here's the list. Let me see....let me see.... oh - I know that one. Yep and that one..... oh - everybody likes that one. DONE!

    GOOD:
    Ok... I've read the lessons, the antiphons, the psalm, the collects, the preface. What do these people have to say? OK... bad choice, bad choice, bad choice.... that one is ok... what's this title? Never heard of it. Oh! It's very nice, let me check that out....wait, no that isn't gonna work.... what else? OH YEAH THAT ONE! I had forgotten about that hymn. It would be perfect.....etc, etc....
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Well it seems that I should have provided more of my own personal history after advising Gavin to reassess his condemnation. I've been doing what Jackson offers for virtually my entire career, poring through the "hymnal" (BB, sigh) weekly, and not just for three years as OCP makes that impossible. But I never compare my ordos with "Today's Liturgy" as I find it over-all an irrevelancy. I have no such hesitancy whenever I wonder if I've missed something in going to Penkala's joint.
    And Little Joe, it is possible to (like a blessing or curse) carry around the contents of many hymnals in one's memory for years.
    But even Gary's hymn choices tend towards the generic for the most part.
    Of course all of this must be viewed from various perspectives. If CharlesW has been at his place for 23 years as I have mine, then one's record keeping can afford the DM "laziness." All I was advising Gavin was that there are exigencies (Wendi's irrational experiences come to mind) wherein the biases of one or more former DMs, pastors and sheep prove toxic because of un-earned laziness. I likely have a small amount of my subordinate leaders who qualify in that category. But I do what I can with summer plenum meetings with them to "bring them up to speed." BTW, "whoa" is a lightweight joke, as opposed to "hold on."
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