Help with vespers
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    I know this topic has come up before, and I have read those discussions, and I am not particularly enlightened, so Hoping someone might be able to give me some brief and precise pointers.

    The task at hand is to sing Vespers = Evening prayer 2 for Sundays from the Liturgy of the Hours (LotH) in English. Not the traditional vespers, but the new post Vatican 2 version.

    I already know how to navigate around finding the right TEXT in English including the repeating four week cycle of psalms, the changing antiphons etc, and the stable parts such as the Magnificat, Paternoster etc.

    I am hoping eventually to sing all parts of this Vespers, but I lack MUSICAL RESOURCES.
    So far, I can find music for the suggested hymns, and I know how to use psalm tones for the psalms such as the St Meinrad tones or other psalm tones based on the Gregorian modes but revised for English language use, or even the psalm tones used in Simple English Propers. So far so good.

    I am totally stuck when it comes to ANTIPHONS. (runs screaming and clutching at hair)

    Can you answer the following questions:
    If I was singing the LotH in Latin (again not the traditional but the new LotH) is there official Church music set for it in the way that the propers of the Mass are given in the Graduale Romanum? If the answer is yes - where / what book is it to be found in? Is this book available online to buy? Is it available on line to view/download?

    If the answer is no, are there any other official instructions about what music to use to sing these antiphons to?

    Secondly - if there is official music for the Latin version, has anyone set the official translation in English to these melodies from the Latin Version? If yes, where was the English translation approved for (US/UK and Ireland)? As before, where can I buy/view/download this material?

    Lastly - Simple English Propers is such a genius idea. Has anyone considered using the psalm tones and developing the antiphons for LotH in this way? Do any of the LotH antiphons line up with Mass propers which could be easily transferred over? Is there a searchable database of SEP by Scripture quotation that might help me find out is this true?

    Lastly, I appreciate, anyone's help on this. I will continue to try to make progress on this myself, but as my knowledge is small and my ignorance huge, perhaps someone out there can save me a decade or two of trying to catch up.

    Thanks!

    Thanked by 1Jes
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 967
    Official music for the Latin Liturgia Horarum is found in the 1983 Ordo Cantus Officii. It's not easy to use:
    - the OCO only refers to a wide variety of resources; it doesn't contain the music itself. Locating these resources can be a real challenge sometimes
    - the OCO also proposes antiphons that are not found in the Gregorian repertoire (i.e. there's no music at all)
    - the OCO has been changed recently, but the changes and additions have not yet been published by the Holy See.

    Official chant books based upon the Ordo Cantus Officii currently do not cover the entire Liturgia Horarum. They are:
    - Liber Hymnarius (1983)
    - Antiphonale Romanum II (2009), Ad Vesperas in Dominicis et Festis

    Free booklets for Compline and Sunday Vespers and Lauds for the entire liturgical year, in Latin and Gregorian chant, can be found on my website Liturgia Horarum in cantu Gregoriano.

    Some English settings, based on Gregorian chants, have been arranged by Fr. Samuel Weber OSB: http://www.musicasacra.com/weber/office/ and http://www.sacredmusicus.org/divine-office
    Deacon Pat Cunningham also put together Gregorian chant inspired settings for English LotH: http://chabanelpsalms.org/CHABANEL_PSALM_TOME/6574_JOS_210.pdf
    Thanked by 4bonniebede CHGiffen Ben_Whitworth Gerald_Klaas
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Thank you - this has helped so far.

    do you know if the antiphonale romanum is published anywhere with English translations? so far I can only find latin and French. Is it online anywhere?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Antiphonale-romanum-gregoriano-exemplar-dispositum/dp/2852743388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398102059&sr=8-1&keywords=antiphonale+romanum
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    That one book is all there is.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Here is an excellent spreadsheet documenting SEP's antiphons and scripture citations. I haven't directed for an OF Mass for a while, but when I do, it's very useful!

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArWsFnOg4y5kdHJCNXBEVWVKVng3VExqcURoRGZ0TVE&usp=drive_web&authkey=CPnA-foE&authkey=CPnA-foE#gid=0
    Thanked by 2bonniebede Jes
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    My recommendation is to sing the antiphon using the same tone that you use for the verses. That way it's easy for everyone (choir and congregation) to intuit how it should go at the end of the psalm.
    Thanked by 2Andrew Motyka bonniebede
  • awilliamsawilliams
    Posts: 101
    I am making progress on my English Antiphonale but it is far from finished. Here is what I have so far (there will be some format differences across the PDF because I am currently doing some reformatting. This will affect the pointing of the psalms in some places.)

    This should allow you to at least chant some of the offices (especially in ordinary time). Sadly, I have not made it to ordinary time for the Gospel Canticle antiphons (at least for vespers. I have finished most sundays for Lauds since we use my settings at the seminary).

    You are free to use any of this. Toss me a message if you do so that I can feel encouraged to finish the book sooner. (Psalm tones are in the back).

    I would recommend purchasing a copy of the Antiphonale Romanum II (or at least use smvanroode's venerable website mentioned above). You could fill in the gaps in my settings with Latin antiphons sung by the schola and then chanting the psalms in English. The benefit of my psalm tones is that regardless of which mode you use, if the psalm text is pointed to one mode it is pointed to all so you could realistically do what we do at the seminary and print a booklet with the psalm texts for all four weeks pointed to my tones and then have a schola sing the antiphons on their own.

    Hope this helps! Have a blessed Easter,
    Aaron
    English Antiphonary_4:21:14.pdf
    636K
    Thanked by 7Ben CHGiffen smvanroode Ben_Whitworth Adoremus bonniebede rtjleblanc
  • Adoremus
    Posts: 35
    It is really difficult for communities or parishes to celebrate the LOTH in sung form due to a lack of resources (especially official ones). In my own private sung LOTH which I usually do on Sundays and great feasts, I use the following:

    TEXTS of the DIVINE OFFICE:

    CHRISTIAN PRAYER (Paulines Edition)
    DAILY ROMAN MISSAL (3rd Edition) for the Collects

    MUSIC

    A. English (Contemporary / Modern)

    Tunes for Christian Prayer - a hand-copy I made of the one used by the Poor Clare nuns of Cantilan, Surigao del Sur. I borrowed a copy of this book when I was in college and I copied it for one month. It is a compilation of tones for the antiphons and psalmody made by the FMM sisters. Psalm tones are mostly from Murray and Bevenot. There is an appendix of settings for the Magnificat and Benedictus.
    Breaking Bread and Today's Missal (Oregon Catholic Press) - for the Lord's Prayer and for some hymns
    Music for the Liturgy of the Hours (ICEL) - a companion volume of the one-volume Christian Prayer published by Catholic Book Publishing. I has all the hymns as suggested by the Christian Prayer pointed to music, musical settings for the introductory verses, psalm tones (Murray, Bevenot), selections for the antiphons, responsories, tones for the intercessions, Gospel Canticles, etc.
    Psalm Tones (by Howard Hughes c. 1992 ICEL)

    B. English ("Gregorian Chant"): Lauds and Vespers

    Introductory Verses

    Cantorinus
    Sunday Lauds and Vespers (http://www.saintmeinradmusic.org/downloads/SLV_Cantor.pdf)

    Hymns

    Hymnal Noted (http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=2E3Dya5ON5oC&printsec=frontcover&hl=tl#v=onepage&q&f=false)
    Hymner
    Hymnarium OP

    Antiphons (Psalmody and for the Gospel Canticles)

    Ormonde Plater's English version of the new Antiphonale Monasticum (http://www.oplater.net/)
    Fr. Samuel Weber's antiphons (https://sites.google.com/a/sacredmusicus.org/sacred-music-us/divine-office)

    Psalm Tones

    St. Meinrad Modal Psalm Tones (http://www.saintmeinradmusic.org/downloads/Modal Psalm Tones (Chnt).pdf)

    Responsories

    Ormonde Plater's English version of the new Antiphonale Monasticum (http://www.oplater.net/)

    Gospel Canticles

    Gospel Canticles for Weekdays (https://sites.google.com/a/sacredmusicus.org/sacred-music-us/divine-office)

    Lord's Prayer

    Parish Book of Chant (http://www.musicasacra.com)
    Music for the Roman Missal (http://www.icelweb.org/musicfolder/openmusic.php)


    Thanked by 5CHGiffen smvanroode igneus bonniebede SrEleanor
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    Use the St. Meinrad Psalter. Hands down it's the most congregation friendly. All in one book.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 483
    The Mundelein Psalter is the one attempt I've seen to put all english resources in one book for ease of singing - have you looked into that? It is very well thought out and constructed and you can sing LOTH every day from it. Downsides include the price ($50 ish) and the fact that the psalms are not revised grail.

    http://www.usml.edu/the-liturgical-institute/special-projects/the-mundelein-psalter

    btw I have no affiliation with that publication - it's just well-known as the single best resource for singing LOTH in english.

    If not going that route, you can absolutely just chant the antiphon to the same tone as the psalm verses - makes everyone's life simpler and is easier to follow anyway.
  • nun_34nun_34
    Posts: 66
    I have several 3-ring binders of music with English antiphons for the Office. It is way too much for me to try copying or scanning it all, even if it weren't under copyright, but I've attached a sample below.
    Music - Abbey of Gethsemani
    Copyright 1984, Dominican Monastery of the Blessed Sacrament, Farmington Hills, MI
    Perhaps one could pursue it with them, if interested...

    - They are chant-style.
    - But they are not modal.
    - They have organ accompaniment.
    - It includes all the LOTH psalm antiphons, responses and canticle antiphons, for Lauds, the Day Hours, and Vespers, for the entire year. Commons, propers, the whole deal.

    I would love to find something like this but based more directly on Gregorian melodies, especially / even if just for the solemnities like Trinity, Corpus Christi, Sacred Heart...
    002.jpg
    1103 x 1692 - 275K
    001.jpg
    1700 x 2338 - 422K
    Thanked by 4smvanroode igneus Adoremus bonniebede
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    It's just easier to use the psalm tone for the antiphons.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    But not nearly as nice. Easy ≠ best.
    Thanked by 7awilliams Richard Mix Gavin M. Jackson Osborn Jahaza Mark Husey bonniebede
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Ben, I think it is easier to use the EF, then Easy does equal best.

    Rant Mode/

    So we (the Catholic Church) have gone from having an official book the Antiphonal Romanum with all the music for most (not Matins) of the Divine Office, that could normally be sung in a parish setting. We also had the Liber for the feasts when Matins could be done, and easy to sing typesetting of most of the other Hours. With these books we should have been able to sing with most parishes around the world...

    What do we have now? Well from looking at the above it makes the Middle Ages with its vast number of variations of the Divine Office look simple and sensible.

    Rant Mode off/

    Can anyone give me a reason to leave EF land and use the modern Liturgy of the Hours?
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 944
    The Mundelein Psalter is the one attempt I've seen to put all english resources in one book for ease of singing - have you looked into that? It is very well thought out and constructed and you can sing LOTH every day from it. Downsides include the price ($50 ish) and the fact that the psalms are not revised grail.


    Excellent resource. Here are a few thoughts that actually blunt the downside:

    1. Revised Grail isn't necessary from the liturgy side, only the publishers'. New editions of the LOTH will have to use RGP, but the current one still uses the old translation.
    2. Putting together single worship aids using LOTH texts doesn't cost royalties.
    3. Most of the psalm tones in the Mundelein Psalter are by Fr. Weber and are in the Creative Commons.
    4. You can't copyright pointing.

    Do you see where this is going?
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • Adoremus
    Posts: 35
    @ nun_34: Maybe somebody can scan the music binders for the English Office... It will be of help to many...
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    tom, the only thing I can think of is english. IF you need to use english, then I would go with the new rite. other than that, I'd also go with the old ones
    Thanked by 4tomjaw Jahaza bonniebede StimsonInRehab
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Even though it is familiar, I would try to avoid using the Mass tone for the Paternoster. There is a setting to the tone for the Divine Office that I've seen - I believe Dr. Mahrt &/or Richard Rice have it.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    BTW I have a copy of the organ accpmt for the Mundelein tones that go with the psalter... I don't know if it is available anymore. It really helps to accompany the psalms for the congregation.
    I can scan it on here if anyone needs it.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I'd like it.
  • NathanReich
    Posts: 31
    Ditto, please.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    - They are chant-style.
    - But they are not modal.


    Just call it "Mode VI"... ;)
    Thanked by 2CharlesW nun_34
  • nun_34nun_34
    Posts: 66
    @adoremus: OK...it may be some months before I get to it, but OK. (Many irons in the fire these days!)
    Thanked by 2bonniebede Adoremus
  • Adoremus
    Posts: 35
    @nun_34: Thank you very much, sister... I'm already looking forward to it...
  • benstoxbenstox
    Posts: 23
    Even though it is familiar, I would try to avoid using the Mass tone for the Paternoster. There is a setting to the tone for the Divine Office that I've seen - I believe Dr. Mahrt &/or Richard Rice have it.


    @Salieri: The Antiphonale Monasticum has two other tones for the Pater Noster, a simple one for the minor hours, and a solemn one for Vespers. Here's the Vespers tone adapted for English.
    EnglishVesperalPN.pdf
    18K
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Thank yo0u all so much for all of this information, suggestions music. Very much appreciated, Ben to have access to that database. Many useful things, though perhaps I should have mentioned that because I'm in Ireland out text translation for the Loth is different from the American version, just as our Mass readings psalms and prayers are, making direct transfer of some resources difficult.

    Any chance someone could collate this and make a permanent webpage on the CMAA site for LOTH? Maybe there is one and I missed it... just saying it seems to come up with some regularity.

    just received permission to begin singing vespers every Sunday in Parish church, so keep us in the prayers.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Any chance someone could collate this and make a permanent webpage on the CMAA site for LOTH? Maybe there is one and I missed it...


    I suspect that copyright issues are a major problem, closely followed by translation problems.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Well, at least it would be helpful to add a page with information, even though we're not in a position to offer downloadable scores.

    I'll put this on the to-do list.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    http://hymnarium.org/ <-I recommend to buy this hymnal, which is specifically for the liturgy of the hours, it is very very good. The only complaint is that some of the english in an effort to be made more contemporary lacks the quality of the original anglo-catholic older english versions. With that being said, for contemporary english, it is probably the best there is, besides Kathleen Pluths work.<br />
    http://www.oplater.net/RevisedGrailPsalter.pdf <-consider using this revised grail psalter. <br />
    http://www.oplater.net/AM--seasons.pdf
    http://www.oplater.net/ <- this is the benedictine, but all the antiphons for the magnificat and benedictus are identical to the liturgy of the hours, except that their english is not necessarily literally identical to what is in the english language books, but is usually more accurate to what the latin says.<br />

    http://www.hymnsandchants.com/DivineOffice/SourceBooks/SourceGeneral/SourceGeneralEaster/SourceGeneralEaster.htm
    http://www.hymnsandchants.com/DivineOffice/SourceBooks/SourceGeneral/SourceGeneralOrdinaryMenu.htm

    These are propers that I believe are for the liturgy of the hours, similar to what nun_34 recommends and were made by Gethsamane abbey, in neume notation. I have not searched this site closely, but it looks quite good, the adapation into english is very high quality. I sang a few antiphons and they more or less match the quality of those made by anglo-catholics as well as various members of this forum.


    Thanked by 1Adoremus
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Yes, someone needs to make a page of resources, because there is a great deal of material that is now online, which we are all mentioning, which is either public domain or has the copyright waived for the good of the praying of the church.
    Thanked by 1Adoremus
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