Offertory Hymn Too Short?
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    During Lent, since the rubrics prohibit instrumental music, what do you do if the hymn you select doesn't cover the entire offertory procession, collection, and preparation? For communion, I have been chanting the proper after the hymn but I don't think my Pastor wants that to happen too often so I need another solution for the Offertory. Keep singing? Silence? I posted this on Facebook, too, and got a few responses that suggested just playing anyway.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I think that it's overly legalistic and rigidly dogmatic to suggest that if a hymn ends and 30 seconds of instrumental coda will cover the rest of the rite, that such "instrumental music" is forbidden during Lent.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I gave up offertory hymns years ago and the choir sings and/or I play during that time. If the choir piece ends during Lent, there is a period of silence. The mass needs more silence. In some parishes, one would think the musicians all have ADHD and can't sit still for three minutes.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I agree and also don't improvise after the choral motet if it's acappella. However, it's an art form to decide when silence will add to the liturgy vs. just be awkward and sound like you ran out of music.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I do think our Masses need more silence. I'm just not sure this is a good place for it.
    PGA - I would tend to agree, except our offertory takes FOREVER. So, in some cases, I could be left with a very long period of music. I might just start the hymn again, but after 5 or so verses, it is easy to get sick of it.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    However, it's an art form to decide when silence will add to the liturgy vs. just be awkward and sound like you ran out of music.


    Our Parochial Vicar has been helpful in this case. Many times, even if I'm playing quietly, if the hymn ends before "Blessed are you..." he'll say that audibly and the congregation responds. Gives some sense of purpose to the hymn ending early.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I suppose the easiest answer is to choose longer hymns, hahaha.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I would not lose sleep over this.

    Improvise after the hymn. You have to use some sense when looking at norms (I'm not implying that you haven't done that or are wanting in that regard.)

    It's easy to see, for me, that the norm means "Don't play a chorale prelude with no hymn as an offertory during Lent." I don't think I'd extend that to "absolutely not one note where there is no singing."
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I'll add, at our non-choral masses we just have complete silence at that time. But on Ash Wed, after all the verses of Parce Domine were expended, yes, I played on that theme for about 2 minutes to cover the rest of the people getting ashes. I'm confident that I won't burn in hell for that - for a lot of other reasons, yes - but not for that.
    Thanked by 1bkenney27
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    Haha, thanks!
  • barnabus1898barnabus1898
    Posts: 90
    Is it possible for you to choose more than one hymn for Offertory? I know in the EF we've started looking at motets to help fill the space after the Antiphon. I'm sure this is a valid option in the OF, but then again, it also depends on the Celebrant. Maybe just have a backup in the wings in case there is too much time?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    Silence.
    Thanked by 6Andrew Motyka Andrew_Malton Spriggo CHGiffen noel jones, aago kenstb
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 944
    I agree with PGA that a small coda shouldn't be seen as a violation of the No Instruments rubric. More importantly, I agree with MJO to just let it be silent. Sometimes, I almost fear that silence. I'm thinking, "oh goodness, this is going to be awkward if the music just stops." Then I just stop, and you know what? It's okay.
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn BruceL Adam Wood rich_enough
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Some ideas:
    A few bars of instrumental music is okay
    Silence
    Ave Regina Caelorum
    Parce Domine
    Attende Domine
    Pick longer hymns for the Offertory
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I know you're in a tricky situation, but would chanting the offertory proper be an option? With verses, you could extend it to fit the action well.
    Thanked by 1bkenney27
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Actually, any Psalm, based on the proper or not, could work the same way.

    Could you use some setting of Psalm 91, 51, or 130 on these Lenten Sundays, perhaps a Gelineau setting from Worship with a lot of verses, that would let you tailor the length? That's one way.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Ben
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I know you're in a tricky situation, but would chanting the offertory proper be an option? With verses, you could extend it to fit the action well.


    That was my original thought, but wanted to check in with the Pastor first. We are already doing that after communion so I didn't want to do too much and have it seen as disobedience. When I checked in I asked for other recommendations. He said to play - I responded that it shouldn't be our first option because the rubrics say the instruments are to be used only to support singing. He just came back and said silence, then. So silence wins!

    A good point about a psalm, though.

    Thanks, everyone! I may look into selecting two hymns for offertory if necessary for the rest of the season, but I like the silence. PGA's quote will be ringing through my head, too, to ensure it doesn't sound like we just "ran out of music." An art form, truly.
  • Nisi
    Posts: 146
    Here's the answer:
    http://media.musicasacra.com/books/offertoriale1935.pdf
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Of all the suggestions I like the "two hymn" suggestion the least.

    My opinion is to use either silence, an organ improvisation, or a psalm with a flexible number of verses.

    The proper + a hymn seems to feel "stuffed" to me (at that part of the mass) as does two hymns. Two hymns just feels way over done to me.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    ... I played on that theme for about 2 minutes to cover the rest of the people getting ashes. I'm confident that I won't burn in hell for that - for a lot of other reasons, yes - but not for that.


    I agree.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 944
    I know you're in a tricky situation, but would chanting the offertory proper be an option? With verses, you could extend it to fit the action well.


    3 words: Simple. Choral. Gradual. Even with organ instead of SATB, it works well to cover these short situations (check with your pastor, like you said).
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    What I found useful is to time the Offertory at a couple Masses and see how long it actually takes, and plan music that would fit that time, either a long-ish hymn that could be cut short if need be (and still make sense), or a average-length hymn and plan on doing a full verse introduction and a four-bar interlude between each verse.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    I think it is more rigid to think silence is something to be avoided at all costs.

    Even in Ordinary time the length allotted to that part of the Mass can certainly be problematic, can't it?

    If a relatively short hymn was the most appropriate choice, I would ask the cantors/song leaders/announcers to let me improvise for a bit, wait until those bringing up the gifts were ready, and when I stopped or signaled him, (that didn't work with my blind cantor,) he could announce the hymn.
    It was always like pulling teeth, they could not seem to get on board with the idea that the money-gathering is not the moment of liturgical importance that a song should accompany.
    The pastor jokingly suggested that in Lent we could just sing all the verses of the Stabat Mater. (I think he liked the idea of plenty of time for a second collection ;o0)

    I'm curious, bkenney, does your collection happen after the procession with gifts?

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Spriggo
    Posts: 122
    I second silence. It works for us.
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    SILENCE WILL FALL.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    I am reminded of a quotation (was it Ralph B?) in the CC Watershed movie about the Colloquium at Loyola, when he talked about the silience at the end of the Requiem Mass, with the foot steps of the prcession heading towards him. Can any video gurus tease that out?
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Well no one said silence is to be avoided at all costs. But there's a definite art to knowing when to be silent and when to keep the music going.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    For some priests, silence is nerve wracking. If not, I would follow the rubrics here. I don't think a 30 - 60 second improve can really be considered a coda. And I think that the instrumental silence of Lent has a real effect; it's not even penitential, just low-key and kind of nice and reflective.

    (I say this as I ponder whether a cookie eaten 3 hours after dinner can be considered part of my Lenten meal, some rubrics being more important to me than others...)
    Thanked by 3Ben bkenney27 CHGiffen
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    I ponder whether a cookie eaten 3 hours after dinner can be considered part of my Lenten meal

    Well, I'm very self-conscious about the weight I've gained during a very trying year, so declining a cookie in such a case would just seem like vanity to me -- I feel it would be holier of me to eat it. ;oP

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 3Ben bkenney27 CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    I see I am out of my league here. G, you are truly brilliant!
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I'm agreeing with Kathy on the matter. Legally, a 60 second coda could be considered part of the accompaniment, and you could make the case and legally "get away with it." But if you're honest, I don't think a coda can really be considered to be supporting the singing. It simply isn't. It seems clear that the atmosphere is supposed to be drastically different than the rest of the year.

    One could say that the hymn ending and silence that follows could be awkward and unsettling. But the lack of improvisation and instrumentals could also be called unsettling.

    Maybe it should be a little unsettling. I think that's the point.

    Again, just my two cents.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    OH! Where! Where! is it recorded in holy writ that there was SILENCE in Heaven. If memory serves, it lasted about half and hour. Seems as though it might have been told of in the Revelation.

    SILENCE - SILENCE - SILENCE -
    is Holy whether on THAT SILENT, HOLY NIGHT or during any day.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Rev 8:1.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    See I even remove excessive instrumental breaks in accompaniment during Lent so I would never justify a coda that way. The only time the organ is heard by itself is for (shorter) introductions. If it is a new hymn (or responsorial psalm), I simply play the melody through once by itself - whereas outside of Lent, I would solo the melody with the other parts as accompaniment.

    My point being that I shy away from "interpreting" the rubrics and quite literally use instruments only to support the singing. If I WERE to interpret this particular rubric, I would say it implies "instruments should be used only...SPARINGLY AND WHEN NECESSARY." So, when in doubt, I tend to remove instruments as much as possible rather than trying to justify adding them and only accompany on 8' foundations and flutes.

    Back to the topic, silence seems to be best. I go back and repeat a few verses if the congregation is singing well, but the silence is good and, according to the Pastor, preferable to chanting the Offertory Proper in addition to the Communion.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I'm increasingly beginning to realize that of people who frequent this board, I'm not one of you.

    I'm thankful that neither are most bishops, priests and our pope.

    How many angels can dance on the head of a pin anyway?
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    In some instances, interpretation, for "pastoral reasons' (I can't believe I just used that phrase), basically depends on ones own 'situation'.

    In my situation, the pastor generally does not approve of 'silence' because it isn't real "Sacred Silence" -- He strongly approves of the silent canon in the TLM, and bemoans its loss in the NO, but that's because it is a real purposeful, focused, sacred silence. It's not the "silence" of people dropping change in the collection basket, of tearing checks out of their check-book, of people in the middle of the pew knocking over kneelers, trying to reach the basket, of people dropping the hymnal while trying to put it back into the rack, of the ushers "whispering" that happens when the music 'runs out'.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen mgearthman
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Yes! Thank you Salieri.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    In some instances, interpretation, for "pastoral reasons' (I can't believe I just used that phrase), basically depends on ones own 'situation'.


    Ooh, ooh, ooh! (waving hand violently in the air) You mean "YMMV"?
    Seriously, could not agree more.
    If someone hadn't asked, I would not be running around playing Liturgy Policy, (my old uniform doesn't fit, anyway.)
    But bkenney did, and many of us answered.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I knew there was a question I neglected to answer. The collection happens before the presentation.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    What's a presentation?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    That's a power-full point, Charles.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I assume he means the presentation (of the gifts), ie, gift procession.
    Thanked by 1bkenney27
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    Do forgive me if my vocabulary occasionally favors c.1960-1980. I am fresh off of a liturgy committee meeting. :)
    Thanked by 3canadash Kathy Mark Husey
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    lol
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    The collection happens before the presentation.
    I knew a priest once who disapproved of music covering the collection.

    He felt people would be more apt to drop paper in the basket if they knew the clink of coins would be audible to their neighbors, but since he was ordained pre-VCII, such concerns are no longer relevant, i suppose.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    clink of coins...ordained pre-VCII...concerns are no longer relevant

    because we are no longer using a gold standard?
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    because we are no longer using a gold standard?
    Someone on these boards is wont to use the phrase "the gold standard" in place of "pride of place" when discussing Gregorian chant, but can't recall who...

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    William Jennings Bryan?
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    You weren't even born in 1980 bk27 ;-), but some of us who were still call it "presentation"

    Thanked by 2bkenney27 kenstb
  • Mark HuseyMark Husey
    Posts: 192
    I copied this from this year's Ordo (Atlanta/Mobile):

    During Lent the altar should not be decorated with flowers, and musical instruments should be played only to give necessary support to the singing. Those preparing liturgical celebrations should attend to the purpose rather than the strict letter of this law as certain instrumental pieces, for example, may in the local situation indeed foster the spirit of the Lenten season. On the Fourth Sunday of Lent (Laetare) and on Solemnities and Feasts, musical instruments may be played and the altar decorated with flowers.

    For what it's worth.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Yes, my diocesan director of music points to that paragraph also, which appears in our Ordo.

    While the Ordo is not an official liturgical book and cannot be viewed as a legal authority, the people who wrote that none the less, in my opinion, understand the nuances of liturgy and the purposes of liturgical law.
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