Seeking Advice for Touchy Subject
  • One of my cantors, an accomplished singer, has become quite a diva lately. She recently gave me an envelope of music with "suggestions" of things she wanted to do as a solo during mass. She is also refusing to attend rehearsals saying she can learn on her own and doesn't need to "waste time" by coming to rehearsals on Thursday night. Yesterday, the two masses at which she was cantor were very rough. After the first mass I took her out for coffee and asked her why she thought it was rough (which she admitted). Her answer was that she didn't have time to look at the music beforehand, but that her talent was strong enough to overcome the "weak points".

    Ordinarily, I would make a decision to take her off the schedule, however, she recently made a HUGE donation to the church and the pastor doesn't want me to offend her. HELP!!!!!
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    So . . . she's paid for a gig where she can rehearse live before an audience?

    You may need to appeal to her vanity.

    Thanked by 2francis Kathy
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Record one of her "performances" that isn't so great. Then play it back for her.
    Thanked by 2francis BruceL
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    The bottom line is that it appears she isn't doing her job, nor is she serving the church to the best of her abilities. That should be your angle to Fr. Donation or not, if she isn't doing the job well, it needs to be considered that she participate less or not at all if she cannot reconcile her attitude. That doesn't sound very Christ like but your job is to consider the service of the church as a whole. If there is an individual detracting from that, it must be remedied. Always remember, even though you must listen to the opinions of others, you do not have to act on them. If this cantor has suggestions that she expects you to implement, she can go find her own music program.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    You can always take a concerned approach when playing back the rotten recording. Say, "I know you are much better than this. What can we do so that you sound your best when singing?"
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Charles is catching my drift....
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Musicteacher56,

    It seems that this donation has caused your cantor to develop a sense of entitlement rather than service to the people of God. Was your pastor at any of the Masses that were rough? If you are responsible for the cantors, you will find your authority undermined if you don't require the same discipline from each of them. An "accomplished" singer knows this. It seems that the real issue is with your pastor. You will find it difficult to do your job if there is a price at which you will allow the liturgy to suffer. Perhaps you can gently remind her of the spirit in which she first became a cantor, which required selfless sacrifice for the benefit of the congregation. The ministry of music requires more faith than talent IMHO, and perhaps from that perspective you can get her back on track.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    MONEY... it's either a blessing or a curse
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    MONEY... it's either a blessing or a curse

    I'm always being told that in Catholicism, things are BOTH/AND
    Thanked by 2Ben G
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    If her participation in rehearsals is a help to the choir, remind her of that too.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • Have you addressed with your pastor the fact that this person is not nearly so well endowed with musical talent as she is with money? That she feels entitled to avoid rehearsals (which she desparately needs) to which her less wealthy cantors and choir members attend faithfully? That she said this would be a waste of her time? This is pure arrogance. Somehow, diplomatically and with your pastor's blesing and help, she needs to be brought to submit to the discipline expected of your other musicians. Failing this you should suggest to her (emphatically if necessary) that she should consider other ministries which she might consider worth her time and preparation. Music, obviously, isn't one of them.
    Thanked by 1expeditus1
  • aria
    Posts: 85
    Choir is a team sport. Rehearsal isn't about the individual- it's about the group. Sure, she can learn her music, but what is she learning? Just notes. Making music w/ others is more than knowing the notes. Not coming to rehearsal means she's missing out on important interpretative information you may give (when to breathe, for example) and she's also missing out on that "magical something" (I don't have a name for it) that happens when a group sings together and just... "jells". I recommend explaining this to her in a way that inspires her to want to be part of the team.
  • Thank you for your responses. I did finally speak with the the pastor who agreed that she was being quite a diva. His answer was to start looking for a replacement and in the meantime, leave her off the schedule as much as possible. I do have a couple other cantors with huge hearts and desires to serve who recently approached me, so the new schedule is out and Little Miss Know It All and Doesn't Have to Come to Rehearsals has been given few masses over the next few months. Father also feels that doing it this way may cause her to re-think her participation anyway and she'll leave on her own when she realizes she's not the alpha and omega of our music ministry.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    See if you can get someone in the congregation to come up to her after mass and ask if she was feeling unwell because she sounded a bit out of form.

    You'd be surprised at what ways you can appeal to someone's vanity.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Arrg. Steve Q. beat me to the infamous A.I. clip.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    Omiwerd, the things I miss by not watching sports...

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Perhaps baking her some muffins or giving a small bribe would encourage her to show up for practice. Even if it doesnt work perhaps you can recommend them to some other skilled singer besiders her who will show up again and again and eat them.

    :-)

  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I have had one of those diva types in almost every job I have taken. There is no dealing with these people as their ego is so central to existence that without it would be like for them living without the sun. I just always put on tons of "sunblock" to avoid sunburn.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    I'm reminded of that great self-styled diva who rented Carnegie Hall out of her own pocket to give a concert for her closest friends.

    Of course, I mean Florence "Flo-Jo" Foster Jenkins.

    http://youtu.be/V6ubiUIxbWE

    Even she practiced.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    "People may say I can't sing," she said, "but no one can ever say I didn't sing."
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    Tell her the rehearsal is part of her job; she is needed at the rehearsal; as a strong voice, she is an essential part of the ensemble, you cannot achieve a proper ensemble without her.
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Both tactful and disarming, Professor Mahrt
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Professor Mahrt, with the one I have, I can't achieve a proper ensemble with her there: she's such a loud voice, and not a team player.

    My diva is mad at me because I wouldn't transpose the offertory hymn for her.
  • Why do we still have cantors?
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Because they fulfill a valid and necessary function.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Best thing I ever did was get rid of song leaders at our school. Replaced them with the school choir. Much better.
  • And, of course, song leaders and cantors are quite distinct species. The former have no place or legitimacy in Catholic worship. The latter do.
    Thanked by 3G CHGiffen bkenney27
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Most so-called cantors these days are actually song leaders anyway and the title of cantor is a misnomer and some would say abuse of the term.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    So when you are using material from By Flowing Waters or one of Andrew Motyka's Communion antiphons, who sings the verses?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    A volunteer choir member or the director, from the loft.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Or you "volunteer" a choir member to do the job based on ability.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    My diva is mad at me because I wouldn't transpose the offertory hymn for her.

    Omiwerd, I directed a musical with her twin once... couldn't understand why I wouldn't transpose an ensemble number for her convenience since I had been so accommodating about her solo.
    People you kinda hope won't "take up their cross" since they themselves are already a heavy enough burden for your shoulders - you don't need the extra weight.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    A volunteer choir member or the director, from the loft.


    I don't think there's anything wrong with singing the psalm from the ambo, (I used to shlep down and back three flights of stairs, singing and playing weddings,) but that's an exception - the loft, if there is one, is a better, less visually distracting place for most of the music ministry, most of the time.

    What do you call a screen behind the chancel from which some choirs sing? (I know a rood screen is at the front of the nave, does the kind in back have a name?)
    That's not a bad place for verse singers of whatever title to sing from.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    And what about in a huge church with no mics in the loft? I should just turn around and sort of yell the psalm while im playing?

    And why must the singer be the unseen voice of oz?

    Our choir sings from the loft. Soloists, as at weddings likewise sing from the loft. Those exercising a liturgical function such as singing psalms during the liturgy sing from down front, on a step up to the sanctuary.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Unlike little children who are to be seen and not to be heard, singers at Mass are perhaps (and often) to be heard and not to be seen?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    The children's choir sings down front, facing across the sanctuary, and do not use microphones. They can be heard just fine everywhere in the church when singing. Our church seats around 700 when full.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I would never put my choir in front. They are too badly behaved and are resistant to any attempts to change them. LOL.
  • I'm really not being catty to Charles' comment immediately above, but I have often observed and intuited that those, choristers and choirmasters alike, who favour their choirs in west galleries do so so that they may be 'badly behaved' and generally 'at ease' from anything approaching exemplary conduct during holy mass. It has been my infrequent experience from singing in 'galleried' choirs that I wasn't really participating in the liturgy, but merely providing off-stage ephemera. Choirs belong 'in choir', 'down front', in choir vesture and engaged totally in the liturgical action, setting a visible and aural example for all. Putting me off in a gallery is robbing me. (But, then, what would you expect an Anglican Use Catholic to say?)
  • JennyJenny
    Posts: 147
    The choir at my local Anglican Use parish sings from the loft, and they appear to be quite well behaved. ;)
  • Well, sad to say, Walsingham's choir are also in the west gallery. They are, also, relatively well behaved, but still lacking in that spirit and comportment that being 'in choir' instills. Not only that, but many choir galleries tend to be rather unworshipful environments, cluttered with all sorts of stuff in thoughtless disarray, and not very neatly kept. Some of them, one would never guess that they were actually a part of the same sacred space as the sanctuary and nave.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Our actually has huge doors that separate it from the nave. They must be opened for the choir to sing into the church during Mass. It is also in an incredibly awful organizational state as they have children's liturgy of the word up there on Sundays. We're I the director of music for the entire parish and not just the school, I would definitely get my adult choir up there. The issue is also one of line of sight between the choir and the organist, as there is no gallery organ, just in a chamber up front behind the altar. The console is on the floor to the right. If there was an assistant director (or even just another organist) I could be either at the console or up in the loft with the choir. Bottom line is that in order to use the loft, we would need a second person to direct the choir during Mass. I don't dare take the children up there for obvious reasons.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Choir and organ are in a loft to the east and there is no other place to put them. This place wasn't built with an Anglican layout in mind. Some of these folks were not any better behaved long before I arrived on the scene. Did I also mention that they are independent as hell?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    "Choirs belong 'in choir', 'down front', in choir vesture and engaged totally in the liturgical action,"
    That's fine if you have boys, or an adult male choir. And a sanctuary built for it. In both matters, "that ship left port a long time ago".
    I haven't noticed "messing around" in the loft, anywhere I've been. There's always a tension between worshipping and singing, but that's functional, and doesn't change with where you're seated.
    Thanked by 1gregp
  • Actually, it's, um, really quite fine, too, if one has a mixed choir.
    A choir is a choir. And, the choir and the sanctuary are two distinct sacred spaces, the one for the choir, and the latter, more sacred, for the sacred ministers.

    As for 'that ship [that] left port a long time ago', keep your eyes on it. It and others have been known to return to port. Which might cause dismay amongst those who glory in not having to watch their Ps and Qs.

  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    There's a general trend that an organ builder friend has observed: people are returning to the Church.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    It's ok if the church is built that way. The episcopal cathedral in our town is MADE for a choir to sit in choir at the front, in the traditional Anglican manner.

    My church is not built that way. And the choir used to just sit in the sanctuary, to the left of the altar. Between the mammoth electronic organ console, the choir, and everything else, there's no way that your eyes were drawn to the altar or tabernacle - and it was very hard to pay attention to anything with the choir sitting up there. It just looked stupid. We're in the loft now.

    Had the church been built with that in mind, with choir stalls, I'm sure it would have been lovely.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    And what about in a huge church with no mics in the loft? I should just turn around and sort of yell the psalm while im playing?

    I don't understand your question.
    We were talking about cantors/psalmists, and choir placement.
    If you are by yourself and required to sing and play at the same time and can't be heard, what do you do?

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Sing and pray!
  • Charles: I am puzzled by your remark above: when you say that your choir gallery is to the east, surely you don't mean over the sanctuary and altar??? Or, do you??? When I say east and west in reference to churches, I mean 'liturgical east', etc.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    You said the key words. If I'm by myself. Why would I create that situation when I can have a competent cantor do it? And why must the cantor be unseen? Maybe the priest and lectors should be in the loft too. Don't want them "performing."