Larson's "Witness" Full Score + Parts=$350!!????
  • Ok, isn't this a 'little' excessive? I've heard of scores running for a total of maybe $50-$55 both parts/full score but c'mon! How do they expect those of us within small parishes who really want the set for Easter to fund this??
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    Yes, it is expensive. Why do you need this set? I looked through it, and didn't really understand its purpose. Yes, I do understand it is a modern day "Cantata" but when would you sing it? I barely have time to properly prepare for the Triduum, Sundays and other feast days.

    There is excellent free music available would enhance the Easter Triduum in your parish. Here is an example: http://www.frogmusic.com/ This compilation is fantastic and amazed me when I was introduced to it.

    "The Parish Book of Chant" is full of the chants you need for the year and can be downloaded for free as well: http://media.musicasacra.com/books/pbc_2nd.pdf

  • It's not uncommon at all for these types of works. Most people rent the scores for these kinds of things.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    Yes, renting is possible. I was responsible for renting music for an orchestra. A composer/arranger in said orchestra was rather upset with me because the arranger of the work would not be compensated. I believe his comment was right and made me rethink renting music by living composers/arrangers.
  • Being an engraver who prepares orchestral parts, I can say that $350 is not unreasonable. Professionally preparing parts and score for a 30-min work isn't a 1-2 hour task, and the publisher has to consider what market there is for the parts. Then, they have to price it based on expected sales. Vivaldi's Gloria is very popular, and sells like crazy, so the prices can be lower. The full score and parts (very small orchestra) from baerenreiter comes to about $85. On the other hand, to RENT the parts for Lizst's Christus--a rarely performed work--is over $700.

    I would suggest that when you prepare your budget for instrumentalists, be sure to include ample funds to purchasing parts, or hiring an orchestrator to prepare parts for songs that aren't orchestrated already.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • I understand what everyone has wrote, but do they also think that every parish is wealthy enough to fork out that kind of money? We are certainly not and yet we cant even order a score with parts for even just one piece at a fraction of the cost. It's all or nothing and you either purchase the entire score for the entire cantata or you are out of luck it seems.
  • It's not written for you and your parish. If it were, the price would be reasonable. It's that simple. They have figured out who will buy it and how much they should be paid to recover the costs in composing, engraving, printing and promotion.

    It's actually a low price for all that.
    Thanked by 2barreltone R J Stove
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,390
    Not that I know anything about Lloyd Larson's "Witness" (I only checked because I thought the piece perhaps was by Libby Larsen), but note the prices at the publisher:

    http://www.lorenz.com/product.aspx?id=55_1169L
  • Catholic Choirbook - Have they figured out who will buy it? Your logic makes sense - but this is not some masterwork by Benjamin Britten, it's a work by a composer that I frankly MAY have heard of but am not sure.

    Angelgirl - don't do the piece. It's not worth the price, it's probably not worth the effort or time, and frankly, my own philosophy (which is just mine, certainly not the only right one) is that there are so many "treasures" in the rep that my choir has not done yet that I'm not going to spend time going into second rate modern pieces that just got published. Now I don't know if this work IS second rate - but really, how many War Requiems or Howells motets come along in a generation, that end up truly standing the test of time and becoming part of the "treasury?"
    Thanked by 2barreltone canadash
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    Lots of other-denomination Christian churches and some large suburban Catholic parishes do these modern cantatas, and they do cost a lot of money, both in buying or renting the materials and hiring the orchestra/soloists, etc.

    My opinion is that this money could certainly be spent in a MUCH better way, at a Catholic Church, on enhancing the Mass.

    However, if you have a choir that wants to perform a show piece, like this one, at a concert outside of Holy Mass, you need to budget for it.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    Also, typically the churches that put these cantata concerts on will accept donations at the door or charge for entry. One would only need 35 people to donate $10 to reach the amount listed in the first post (though if buying from Fr. Krisman's link you'd need a lot more to donate $10).
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,153
    Last year, I prepared a performing edition of the Bach Cantate BWV 56 "Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen" complete with full and condensed conductor's scores, choral score (for the concluding Chorale), and parts (Oboe I & II, English Horn, Violins I & II, Viola, Violoncello, Basso Continuo).

    The English horn part required some editing, since it generally doubles the viola part which occasionally goes below the range of an English horn, and in the final Chorale, the 2nd oboe is given the option of doubling the alto voice rather than duplicating the 2st oboe doubling of the soprano voice. The Conductor's full score and the Choral score for the final movement have been published here, at CPDL, free for nonprofit use. The parts are actually available from me, as well, but only on a case-by-case basis, where I can verify that they will be used for nonprofit purpose (otherwise, I would charge for purchase or rental of the parts).

    I prepared this edition, gratis, for a performance by the Phipps Oratorio Society, under the direction of Thomas Dahle, as I have done for a few other works in the past, including Handel's "Serse: Act 1, Scene 1" (the famous "Ombra mai fu" aria, a.k.a. "Largo" when simply played instrumentally) and the Bach soprano solo Cantata BWV 202 "Weichet nur, betrübte Schatten" (not yet published).

    If anyone wishes to use the concluding Chorale from BWV 56, it's a marvelous text, with imagery of the path to death and the hereafter in the setting free the rudder of the ship of ones life, so I am attaching the Choral score, as published at CPDL.
    Komm, o Tod, du Schlafes Bruder,
    Komm und führe mich nur fort;
    (Come, O death, thou brother of sleep, come and lead me away)
    Löse meines Schiffleins Ruder,
    Bringe mich an sichern Port!
    (Release my little ship's rudder and bring me safely to port)
    Es mag, wer da will, dich scheuen,
    Du kannst mich vielmehr erfreuen;
    (Whoever may, might shun you, but you can delight me so much more)
    Denn durch dich komm ich herein
    Zu dem schönsten Jesulein.
    (For through you shall I come to the dearest Jesus.)

  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    Let's examine for a second the cost of doing such a Cantata... You have a 16 person choir, are hiring 4 soloists, a small orchestra, and are buying the music.

    Music Purchasing:
    $578.95

    Hiring Soloists:
    $150 x 4 for concert, $100 x 4 for rehearsal
    =$1000

    Hiring an Orchestra
    $150 x 10 (violin, violin, viola, cello, flute, oboe, clarinet, trumpet, trombone, piano)
    $200 to find a guy with timpani who can bring them and play
    =1700

    Total:
    3278.95

    So for that one evening of hypothetical music, you'd pay that much. You'd need 330 people to donate $10 each to break even.

    That same money could hire 4 section leaders for a Catholic liturgical choir for 16 weeks (at $50 per call, hiring college students). You could improve the state of liturgical music in your parish for every Sunday from Lent I until Pentecost.

    Which is the better way to spend money?
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood canadash Ben
  • So for that one evening of hypothetical music, you'd pay that much. You'd need 330 people to donate $10 each to break even.

    That same money could hire 4 section leaders for a Catholic liturgical choir for 16 weeks (at $50 per call, hiring college students). You could improve the state of liturgical music in your parish for every Sunday from Lent I until Pentecost.


    But...how to find 330 to give $10 each to do this...and a pastor to let you raise and spend the money? Sorry, isn't going to happen, but doing a miserable popular cantata can. Doesn't make sense, but it's following the protestant model.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,153
    In my experience with Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, and Presbyterian choirs which have presented cantatas, most of them had choirs of sizes over 20, generally used soloists from the choir, and (if instruments were requried) often used instrumentalists recruited from the congregations.

    I've been a soloist for the St. Saens Christmas Oratorio, the Dubois Seven Last Words, the Vaughan-William Five Mystical Songs, several Bach Cantatas (including "Bleib' bei uns", "Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme", "Ich hatte viel Bekümmerniss", and some I forget) as well as the St. John Passion, Handel's Messiah and Sampson, the Monteverdi Vespers (performances by Zephyrus), etc. I was paid only for Sampson (it was with a community oratorio society) and for "Wachet auf" (at a Methodist church in northern Virginia, of which I was not a member). I've also sung in several (mostly forgettable) cantatas composed in the 20th century, also without pay.

    Perhaps Catholics think too much of hiring soloists and orchestras or are unable to cut corners? Just sayin'.
  • Perhaps Catholics think too much of hiring soloists and orchestras or are unable to cut corners? Just sayin'.


    Well put. Build your group and recruit local musicians....hard to do when pastors are rotated and you lose support. Protestants aren't stupid and will fight to hang on to a pastor and have a chance at succeeding unless the pastor wants to leave.

    Being a Catholic priest these days is much more like being in the army..."after this tour of duty I will"....instead of "upon this rock...".
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen