Question on the Kyrie
  • hilluminar
    Posts: 120
    We had a guest priest offer Mass in the OF recently at our church. He said that the priest is to chant the Kyrie/Lord Have Mercy in alteration with the people. The choir is not to do it. I looked in the "Today's Missal", and it says: "Priest, Deacon, or other minister" where it gives the chant for the Kyrie/Lord Have Mercy. That sort of shocked me that I had never noticed that before. It means that the Kyrie/Lord Have Mercy must be short, for the people to be able to repeat what the priest, deacon, or minister chants. (It probably should be acapella too.)

    So it sounds like beautiful long Kyries, traditionally sung by the choir, are out of the question in OF Masses. Am I right on this? Has anyone else ever run across this? Has anyone had priests who insisted on this "priest, deacon, or other minister rule for the Kyrie/Lord Have Mercy?

    On the other hand, it looks like the choir will no longer have to listen to which form: 1, 2, or 3, that the priest chooses to take for the penitential act, since the most likely scenario for all these forms is that the priest would chant the Kyrie/Lord Have Mercy himself in alteration with the people. The choir and organ would not break forth into song until the Gloria. Is this right?
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Is not the choir a ministry?
    So choir = ... Or other minister.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn kenstb
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    The Missal indicates that the "Priest, Deacon, or other minister" sings the Kyrie (with the people responding) when it is part of the Penitential Act, i.e. the third form of the Penitential Act.

    Otherwise, the Missal simply indicates "V" and "R" for the Kyrie invocations (versicle and response). The GIRM says that it is "usually executed by everyone, that is to say, with the people and the choir or cantor taking part in it."

    It would be absurd to interpret this as excluding the traditional practice of the choir alternating with everyone for these invocations, which is the norm at Papal Masses in Rome.
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,162
    There are three forms of the penitential act. In each, the priest begins, for leading the people in the act of penitence is his role. In the first and second, a confession of sins is said (one a form of the confiteor, the other a responsory), and then the priest says the absolution. With those, the Kyrie follows. The pertinent rubric (GIRM 52) for the Kyrie does not specify who says what, but only that "usually" everyone takes part, including the singers and the people.

    In the third form, which perhaps tries to recreate the ancient (pre-Gregory) practice of a litany at this point, a "priest, deacon, or other minister" takes the invocations (You were sent to heal, etc) with the people responding Lord, have mercy. In this form the "regular" Kyrie does not follow.for, because the litany contained it already.

    Has the rubric for the third option gotten attached to the other tow, in "Today's Missal"?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    You should always discuss this with the celebrant (if he is unfamiliar) before Holy Mass.

    The Graduale Romanum is the book from which the Catholic choir should sing from, if they are capable, in the Ordinary Form.

    It has the Gregorian Kyrie settings in it.

    Therefore, it seems to follow, that Gregorian Kyrie settings are the ideal when there is a choir that is able to execute them with the congregation responding - if the celebrant uses Penitential Rite A or B.

    I've heard some attempts to combine the Gregorian Kyrie with Form C - and the results I've heard are less than desirable. If you must use Form C, I think the melody from the Roman Missal sung by a priest, deacon, or cantor is the best method.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    My understanding that the three forms of the Kyrie are given as such:

    Form A:
    Confiteor then sung Kyrie.
    Typically, it is a call-and-response between the Cantor and Congregation.

    Form B:
    Versacle (Have mercy on us, O Lord... etc)
    Sung by the Priest or other minister
    Then the Kyrie is sung as per form A

    Form C:
    You were sent to heal the contrite... etc
    In this case, the Kyrie is not sung afterwards as it is part of the penitential act.
    Gloria follows immediately when appropriate (Solemnities, Feasts, Sundays outside of Lent and Advent)
  • hilluminar
    Posts: 120
    Thanks to those of you who cued me in to the GIRM, and about the papal Masses.

    donr: It is true that the word "ministry" is so loosely interpreted now that it could mean almost anyone. That is one reason why I was confused.

    Matthew: I will certainly mention the Kyriale in the Gradual Romanum to this priest if I see him again. Good point.

    hartleymartin: My understanding of the Kyrie is the same as yours. This priest really threw me a loop right before Mass.

    I think I am back on track now and understand what to sing when. The Kyrie is not the exclusive domain of the priest. Thanks everyone.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Another example of unclear or useless changes in rubrics in the Ordinary Form.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    The Graduale p. 709 has a rubric about the Kyrie sung as part of the Penitential Act: it must be Kyrie XVI or XVIII or the Kyrie simplex.
    Thanked by 3Robert hilluminar Jahaza
  • barnabus1898barnabus1898
    Posts: 90
    It has been my experience that anytime a priest is WILLING to sing the Kyrie, it is a joyful thing. Typically, I have experienced this with option A) Confiteor recited, and the Kyrie follows. The way that we have interpreted it here is that if the Priest is unwilling/unable to chant the Kyrie (the organist can play the intonation) then it falls to the Deacon. If the Deacon is unwilling/unable, then it falls to a Cantor (who is a member of an Apostolate, and not technically a Minister. Ministers administer the Sacraments.)

    With that being said, after whoever is assigned intones the Kyrie, ALL of the faithful respond. This includes the choir and the Cantor.

    Maybe I misread or didn't understand the post, but I couldn't tell if the priest didn't want the choir and Cantor to sing at all during the Kyrie, or if it was just for intoning each part.

    I've also known priests who do prefer more elaborate Kyries during penetential seasons. Typically, they let that responsibility fall to the cantor and choir. That also comes with communication between the priest and the apostolate. If this was a visiting priest, it's usually hard to nail down all of the particulars before the Mass begins. It's definitely one of my personal nails for embracing the work that I've so joyfully entered into.

    That being said, cudos for having a priest willing to intone it! Maybe if he visits more often, you guys can iron out all of the subtleties!
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 945
    If you want to be that rubrical about the Penitential Act, then you can argue that the Kyrie eleison isn't part of it at all; it follows the Penitential Act unless "Form C" is used.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    That's how I read it too.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I concur.
  • hilluminar
    Posts: 120
    barnabus1898, the one time in my experience that a priest chanted the kyrie, the faithful responded to each intonation with gusto. It was a very joyful experience. The kyries in the Simple Gradual are perfect for this. Perhaps it should become a common practice for the priest to intone the kyrie in option A.
  • barnabus1898barnabus1898
    Posts: 90
    I have had wonderful experiences with it. Again, it all depends on the priest. If he's comfortable doing that, then it's a beautiful thing! If he's not and there's a deacon who can, it's a wonderful thing! If neither are comfortable, and there's a brave soul who will intone from the choir loft, then it's a beautiful thing!
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