Why are pedals important?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Go.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Not required, but it can isolate the baseline, and add oomph to it, which sounds better on many pieces, IMHO. Also can be used as another musical line on complicated pieces.

    Or, as Francis has been known to do, you can play while directing with both hands.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    As Jesus meant to say in Matthew 11:15, He that has feet to play, let him play.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Because I can't reach down to move my bicycle front wheel so I can ride without tipping over.
    That's one of the reasons I gotta scooter too, it don't have no pedals and I go "Wheeeeeeeee....."
    Thanked by 3ryand CHGiffen ZacPB189
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Because they make the flowers so pretty.
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  • TCJ
    Posts: 970
    Because I only have two hands.

    Also, it makes me seem more talented than a mere pianist -- even if I'm probably not.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Pedals exist for walking bass lines.
    Untitled.pdf
    75K
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  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Also, it can be very nice on some pieces to have the melody droning below on 8 and 16s in the pedals and have something nice above it played on the manuals.

    I sometimes do that when improvising on a chant, in fact, I just did it this Friday at Mass when I played on short notice: I picked a chant I knew, played short melodic segments in the pedals under something else in the hands expanding on it, back to the next phrase of the chant in the pedals, more flowery stuff in the hands.

    It simply expands the possibilities and creates more interest in the music.
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  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 417
    Because it would feel weird playing a 32' stop on the manuals.
    Thanked by 3Ben CHGiffen ZacPB189
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Ultimately you don't "need" pedals. But they certainly add possibilities to the music.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    The pedal division on an organ serves to permit the organist to strengthen the bass line by playing the lower notes of a hymn or anthem and adding even more stops, usually an octave below (normally 16' stops but also even 32' stops) that, if added to the manuals would really gum things up, making them think and muddy.

    An organ plays lower in pitch than a symphony orchestra in pitch and much more powerfully, which is why it appears in grand works...

    Imagine your favorite rock band. Why have a bass player, since a guitar can play the same notes? The bass player plays an octave lower and with lots of power using amplifiers to balance and support the upper voices in the band.

    Organ pedal stops are scaled to underpin everything.

    32 stops are played in the manuals, even 32 reeds in some french works

    Baroque players played the bass lien in the pedals, chordal accompaniment often in melodic form in the left hand and then played the solo melody in the right hand.

    Serious organ students learn to do this with hymns - bass in LH, alto + tenor LH, sop in RH. However, most organists play hymns with all parts in the hands and add the pedals, since this technique is not easy.

    Many organs, pipe and digital today, have a device that will read the lowest note in the LH and play it in the pedals.

    Bach wrote an number of pieces with pedal parts that would seem impossible to play, and they were, since he put the pedal in the LH using 16' stops on the Great, and the melody down in the pedal using 4' stops so that it played in the 8' range.

    See the flexibility of playing pedals here:

    http://www.youtu.be/juKolphjfds

    Note that playing 4, 5 and even 6 parts (at the end of the first movement) comes naturally to an organist. This was not written by Bach, but by Vivaldi for strings and Bach arranged it for organ from:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOQwzmwvOE

    Note the lack of pedals in the original in the beginning - pedals added by Bach possibly to reinforce the repeated short stroke notes of the bow.

    Though the score looks like a lot of parts, the top players are soloists and are joined by the full group usually playing the same notes on the lower staves. The original parts were probably written with the entire parts, with ripieno indicating when the entire group played.
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  • OrganistRob320OrganistRob320
    Posts: 157
    The pedals allow me to free up my left hand to conduct from the console significantly more than when playing the piano! Also, the standard bass line strengthening which was mentioned above.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • francis
    Posts: 10,677
    because we organists have feet!
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 945
    Imagine your favorite rock band. Why have a bass player, since a guitar can play the same notes? The bass player plays an octave lower and with lots of power using amplifiers to balance and support the upper voices in the band.


    This is a good analogy.

    Some piano players probably wonder why the pedals are important because they can catch the same pitches in the left hand (and a digital organ might even have an "automatic bass" adding an octave below the lowest pitch).

    One limitation to this idea is that, because the organ can sustain pitches indefinitely only if they are being held (i.e., you can't cheat with the damper pedal), it helps to have an independent bassline.

    Also, it allows the overall range of harmony to be considerably wider, since you could play a low C on the pedalboard without compromising a much larger or rhythmically diverse harmony with your hands.

    Lastly, the registration capability of the organ allows not only an individual bassline, but a reserved color for that line. The organ is nothing if not versatile.

    Plus, 4' pedal solos are sexy.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    To sell twice as many grand pianos.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zti_CN4lpeI
    Thanked by 3ryand JulieColl ZacPB189
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    The reason I started this discussion was mostly about the physical/visual aspect of it.

    I was overlooked as a sub organist years ago by the co-directors of a very beautiful sacred music program specifically because I was not using pedals on the audition pieces. They, sitting right by the organ, saw that my feet were stagnant (besides the swell pedal).
    [They saw this in the loft. Nobody in the pews would have known if it was my left foot or right ear playing.]

    On the other hand, I was entrenched into an EF/OF parish after the pastor heard me improvising and learning their instrument for an hour, using the pedals as Ben Yanke described above. Again, I could have been doing the manual work on the pedals and the pedal work on the manuals. He didn't know. I was in the loft and he was cleaning up the sanctuary.

    In either situation, was it the music performed (and how it sounded), or the visual of what was happening? When I played Frescobaldi without pedals (because it had none written), directors were unimpressed. When I free-wheeled on an Agnus Dei, unbservable, in the loft, my pedal work was desirable.


    So, what is it that makes people think "real" organ playing involves footwork?

    If the end musical result were the same, would you care if the pedals were involved?

    With the video Adam posted - is the aural or the visual more important?



    Back to organs in church - is the aural or visual more important in determining quality of performance?
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  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,185
    Forgive me, but as an organist, there is only one answer to your question: what the score demands. If the Vierne 6th symphony requires a pedal ( which it does), than you play it. What you hear is hopefully what Vierne intended. Visuals aside, its what the score demands. Then what you hear from that score is the quality of the performance. Personally, very few see me play, but they do hear it.

    its all about the music.....The rest is just gravy.
    Thanked by 3Andrew Motyka CHGiffen noel jones, aago
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I was overlooked as a sub organist years ago by the co-directors of a very beautiful sacred music program specifically because I was not using pedals on the audition pieces. They, sitting right by the organ, saw that my feet were stagnant (besides the swell pedal).

    1. These people are idiots, and should have asked you to play something with pedals if that was their concern.
    2. I assume you now incorporate pedals into auditions.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Kevin,

    Right, and I've played some Vierne pieces (nothing like that!) which used pedals. Boehlmann. Arvo Part. Bach. Etc.

    When it comes down to playing Veni Emmanuel, or the Rossini propers, or whatever, why is it that some church folks are more hung up about seeing your feet involved than with what they're actually hearing?

    Back to Adam's video ... does it matter was is seen or what is heard?
    The motivations for that kind of performance are clear. It's as much sport as it is art. But when accompanying the Marian hymn after mass, is it more important to hear a beautiful accompaniment, or to know the organist's feet are dancing?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    1. These people are idiots, and should have asked you to play something with pedals if that was their concern.
    2. I assume you now incorporate pedals into auditions.


    They asked me to incorporate pedals into pieces which did not have them (or hymns which I had not prepared pedals for - sight reading on an unfamiliar instrument in an awkward key - ok, I already told you folks I was a piano major, not a doctoral organ student!).


    Yeah, I include pedals in auditions as much as I am able (and as much as the panel cares).
    Just re-living past frustrations about why the feet are such an important aspect to some folks. Shouldn't the aural result be the ultimate decision? Who cares if it was feet or nostrils which produced the music? How does it actually SOUND in the end?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Imagine your favorite rock band. Why have a bass player, since a guitar can play the same notes? The bass player plays an octave lower and with lots of power using amplifiers to balance and support the upper voices in the band.

    Like....
    The Doors
    Lee Michaels Band
    The (Young) Rascals
    Emerson, Lake and Palmer?

    But your point also works in jazz with the great Jimmy Smith the paragon. If you've ever seen a jazz organist play a fast walking bass line, you'll go blind if you stare too long.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    The Doors, while using an organ, didn't use pedals either!

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    http://adammichaelwood.github.io/on-the-organ/

    (and if you liked that one-
    http://adammichaelwood.github.io/on-piano-practice/
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  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    Seriously, though, since I did not formally study much organ repertoire...not why pedals, but rather, when pedals?

    Does the score always indicate whether a pedal is required (or intended) or not? I'm not talking about early works where pedals weren't available or in scores where there is a clear independent bass line on a separate staff, nor even hymns. Rather, when it comes to a two staff organ score where there is no specific indication for pedal use and all the parts can easily fit in the hands, should one assume to play manuals alone, or add the pedal anyways, or is it left to the discretion of the organist?
    Thanked by 2ryand ClergetKubisz
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    My understanding is that it's simply a registration decision by the organist.

    Anyways, even if it wasn't, will the pedal police come stop you? :)
    Thanked by 2CharlesW ClergetKubisz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Some earlier works were written for instruments with keys that were more narrow. Many assume the composers had gigantic hands. Sometimes they did, but often not. There were no AGO standards in those days. Coupling the manual to pedal allows picking up some of those distant bass notes not reachable on modern instruments.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Btw, nothing is "required" by the score. Really, the organist can play anything he wants. The score is just a help to him creating beautiful music.

    Unless the score police are watching.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Btw, nothing is "required" by the score.

    This is an important point about all music.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    A score is not music, but paper and ink. Keyboard notation has gone from very sparse to very detailed over the centuries. For example, in the baroque period, they started writing out ornaments that previously the organist would have known to do automatically.

    If a score has a pedal part, play it on the pedals. If not, and there are no obvious instructions, use your (educated) judgment. It would be misguided to say universally "all two-stave music must be played with/without pedals." It depends on the instrument, the space, etc.
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Sometimes it also depends on the music. You can take some pieces that have two staves and four parts and play that bass line like it was a cantus firmus.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    Unless the score police are watching.


    They're always watching! ;)

    All valid points, and that's why I qualified "required" with "intended". We generally try to recreate a piece by following the composers intentions as much as practically possible. So early music aside. Are there any "conventions" for interpreting 19th and 20th century organ music notated on two staves? I was just looking at Brahm's prelude on Es ist ein Ross. It could be played either way. So artistic preference and instrument resources aside, are there any conventions for interpretation?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,769
    Unless the score police are watching.

    One doesn't always know! More important of course is how your interpretation sits with Jesus and your own guilty conscience.

    I can't imagine playing Es ist ein Ros' (die Rose; ß, sz or double s implies a horse instead of a flower) with a 16' bass, though peculiar instruments and acoustics might conceivably make that acceptable as a kind of 4th option. I imagine lots of players couple a manual for the big left hand stretches, and it's possible to use 8' bass to free up the left hand to solo the choral in the tenor of the Man. II bits, or even to solo it out on pedal. I would consider neither of these conventional.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    Btw, nothing is "required" by the score. Really, the organist can play anything he wants. The score is just a help to him creating beautiful music.
    Ben, that depends upon a lot of things. If you are playing Bach, Widor, Messaien, or any of a whole host of other composers writing for organ - with pedal parts specified - you don't have that much freedom and probably shouldn't exercise it anyway. There is such a thing as faithfulness to the composer's written score.

    You don't really have the "freedom" to substitute Chopsticks for a Bach fugue.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    On the issue of big reaches in the left hand. This can be attributed to two things:

    1.) In older times, there was no standardised octave span on keyboards. Quite often, you will find that Spinets and Virginals had much narrower keys because they were intended to be played by women and/or children who had smaller hands.

    2.) In older times the short-octave bass was common. This is where the keyboard appears to end at an E, but in fact this is a C and what appears as the F# and G# are the D and E keys, respectively. Just to make matters more interesting, many English organs appear to go down to the B, but this is in fact a G and what appears as the C# and D# are in fact an A and B.

    At the bottom end of the keyboard you will find little call for C#,D#, F# and G# in earlier music. People didn't write music that required them, and since many keyboards didn't have them, no-one cared. One of Bach's organs didn't have a bottom C#, but otherwise had a full chromatic compass for 4 octaves!
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I regularly play this little organ for my college chaplaincy. 3 stops, single 56-note manual and only 20 hitch-down pedals. Quite useful for doubling the bottom note an octave lower, although does require some forethought as it is only 20 notes, and there is no 16' stop.

    image
    http://www.sydneyorgan.com/Campion.html

    This organ, which I play for the University of Sydney Chaplaincy has 5 stops, a single 53-note manual and no pedals at all! I got my D drone note for one of my improvisations by inserting a pencil to keep the key depressed!

    image
    http://www.sydneyorgan.com/StJohnsCollege.html
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,369
    I'm sure that many here will be aware of Bach's G-Major Fantasy (commonly called, I believe, the Piece d'orgue) which requires in its middle section a low B. I know of no organ that has such a note, but always wish that one was there.
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Because without them the Boellman Toccata would not sound as good.
    Thanked by 1ZacPB189
  • AndrewK
    Posts: 41
    Because the Pedal division of an organ is more than just sounding a bass line, balancing sound, etc. It is an independent division in which organists are required to be proficient. However, many organs built are not built with this consideration, hence some of the above comments about coupling and registration. Nevertheless, it is the standard performance practice to use the pedal division. Granted, there is music that doesn't call for pedals, but that is not my point. Whether hymns, service music, or the majority of organ repertoire, the pedal plays an integral role. BTW, MJO, there is such an organ that has a low B in the pedal. The University of North Texas houses a period style french classical instrument built by Bedient. It goes down to low F if my memory serves, and yes a colleague has played the Piece D'orgue on it.
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    Why are pedals important?

    Because they're there?
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  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,390
    I thought that the unwritten corollary to "No. 5. Avoid Flames" of the Forum Etiquette Guidelines, ver. 0.5, is that if anyone should experience the uncontrollable impulse to flame,
    The text is to be written in bold PURPLE, and the use of ALL CAPS is considered to be entirely outré.

    So what's up with the magenta, Chuck?
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    O magenta mysterium.

    'Tis the season, you know.
    Thanked by 2ryand Aristotle Esguerra
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I know. It's the colors of Christmas
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    I played for a Mass this morning in a high school gym where the instrument was a very nice Roland positive organ. The sound that came out of it was quite nice, nicer than many "real" electric organs. But playing without pedals just isn't fun.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Playing low B is not impossible at all.

    You add a 32' and play the phrase an octave higher.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    matthewj, what Roland was it?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    Not sure. It was Bartlett's.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,677
    Because pedals are like playing an instrument with three hands. More polyphony!

    Can you imagine the entire organ repertoire WITHOUT feet!?!?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    They really are necessary in order to play SATB typed stuff. It is possible, yes, to play SATB arrangements on an organ without using the pedals, but it really isn't as satisfactory as playing the same arrangement with the pedals playing the bass part. The extra freedom given to the left hand to help out in the manuals is indispensable, I think. That's why at our church, where we have a Roland RM700 and a Hammond organ that I'm not supposed to play, I don't even bother with the organ sounds on the Roland: I just do piano-style there, and I will until either I'm allowed to play the Hammond, or until we get a real organ.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,185
    When I play the Bach trio sonatas, I tell my students I am playing a trio with myself. They look at me strangely........
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