Coming from the top...
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    In the 1950's the local expert on Gregorian Chant in every parish was the priest. Having sung the Mass daily while in Seminary, they arrived in parishes and, as needed, guided the local musicians in the right direction.

    The parish I was at had the pastor and associate. Pastor had to have a chord progression before every response and the response was always accompanied. Made the job stressful having to anticipate when he was ready for the cues.

    Assistant did not want this and in Advent and Easter for daily Mass, we never even turned the organ on. Of course if we saw the Assistant in the sacristy and the Pastor walked out on the altar instead, it took a while to get the organ blower up to speed...

    Those on the list who know more about Gregorian Chant and are saddled with priests who know nothing but the music of the last 40 years have to struggle with this and look forward to the day when you are no longer the expert in town!
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The priests coming out of the seminaries at the moment have had some liturgical formation and training in church music. When they eventually hold posts as the Parish Priest, hopefully they will have the sense to hire good musicians.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Pastor had to have a chord progression before every response and the response was always accompanied. Made the job stressful having to anticipate when he was ready for the cues.


    This bring back a lot of memories! When I was very young, I remember watching my mother accompany all the responses at Mass, and she would very, very lightly play the keys to find the right pitch while Msgr. was singing so she could get the right chords.

    Apropos the priest being the local chant expert, that reminds me of a story in The Kalendarium by Adam Bonieki about the young Fr. Karol Wojtyla training the schola to sing Gregorian chant in his first parish assignment.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    the young Fr. Karol Wojtyla training the schola to sing Gregorian chant in his first parish assignment

    He had a performing arts streak to him. He also founded a theatre company.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    The priests coming out of the seminaries at the moment have had some liturgical formation and training in church music. When they eventually hold posts as the Parish Priest, hopefully they will have the sense to hire good musicians.


    THIS.

    This is the case. It's gonna take time for the shift to occur, but I have yet to meet a young priest who isn't in line with CMAA ideals. The issues they face are that they're new to priesthood (so not yet pastor, and not yet having any sway), or just figuring out how to peacefully repair the damage of previous generations.


    Two anecdotes:
    Looking over propers with a parochial vicar, he said "oh poor offertory antiphon" (because its never really used). I asked "What happened?" His response: "I blame the 60's." (Neither of us would have been a twinkle in our earthly father's eye at that point)

    The other just being that I know a young priest whose seminary included Spirit of the Liturgy as required reading. (How cool is that?!) He loves P&W music but knows it has no place at mass ... and he knows and sings the Marian antiphons (and sings them well) by memory, in Latin (and knows what they mean). I never even HEARD of those growing up. He knows them just because he's Catholic. The attitude being.. why WOULDN'T he know them?


    The ROTR will happen. Maybe some of us will even live to see it.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    Our jobs are much easier if there is singing coming from the sanctuary. And I'm not talking about priests joining in the congregational hymns or strumming their guitars during the homily.

    When the Mass is chanted from the front, what we propose should be coming from the choir loft makes clear sense. Ending a rock song and having the priest chant the Sign of the Cross speaks more than any lecture, education series, or bulletin column. A chanted Introit seems normal, right, and just when the Sign of the Cross is chanted after it. Likewise "G'mornin' ev'rybody!" seems very odd after a chanted Introit.
    Thanked by 2ryand Andrew Motyka
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    It's quite simple, as Mat-ieux states: people react to specific stimulus with a correspondingly appropriate response.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,369
    Correspondingly appropriate response???
    This would be true of but a piteously few souls: otherwise people would not walk but run out of their churches because of the music and 'quality' of liturgy to which they are subjected. Not only do they not bolt, they would have us believe that they like it!... and, they become upset and bellicose at efforts towards betterment!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    This would be true of but a piteously few souls: otherwise people would not walk but run out of their churches because of the music and 'quality' of liturgy to which they are subjected. Not only do they not bolt, they would have us believe that they like it!... and, they become upset and bellicose at efforts towards betterment!


    Sorry, can't find my dictionary to try and fugue this one out.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    ...efforts toward betterment!


    Makes me curious if a parish were subjected to one month of the best of P&W, and the following month nothing but chant/polyphony, how they might respond to the difference.

    Was the GIA material conducive to prayer, or was it more impactful to have the priest chanting at the altar? Did you find yourself in a contemplative state during the latest sacropop hit (which you heard in the car on the ride to mass), or were you confuzzled by that Latin thingy the choir did while you received Christ?

    Ain't my place to judge, but I'm pretty sure most PIP's would answer affirmatively to one of these (that option which is in line with the mind of the church). The problem is that they have not been given the option - and when they have, it's more of a novelty than a norm.

    Someday.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I showed my sixth graders a video of a TLM and they were all enthralled by it, absolutely curious and completely attentive.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn JulieColl
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Honestly, Jackson!
    What part of the celebrant chanting "The Lord be with you." and the folks (and I mean all of them) getting (I sing back) "And with your spirit." don't you get????
    Any celebrant that can manage that, any congregation anywhere, they'll get it. What's your problem?
    This was the genius of Summorum.
    Don't ask me how I know. I've witnessed it here, there and everywhere since '10.
    Thanked by 2R J Stove Spriggo
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Yes, Melo, I believe people to be much more capable than they want us to believe.
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    People are capable, but very stubborn. Those who are against anything other than "feel good, touchy-feely" masses will appear they are having difficulty learning chant and/or following the priest, when in reality they are very capable. Their modus operandi is to sit frustrated and angry in the pews saying that their worship is being stifled by the priest who insists on congregational responses to his chant. And, as far as hymns are concerned, most people give little thought to the lyric and concentrate on the rhythm, melody and "flow" of the music. Until we're able to get people to be open (not educated, but OPEN) to true liturgical music, we are pretty much banging our heads against the wall.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Ahh, yes but they can not become open until they are educated. Thus we start the ridiculous dog chasing its tail scene.
    Thanked by 1bkenney27
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I apologize in advance for the following comment if they offend previous posters...people who have posted?.

    There are degrees of participation.

    True full participation is merely being there. Monks and Nuns who live in silence still live and participate as a community outside of Mass and the Office.

    Participation in song....and spoken prayer...decrease with lack of familiarity.

    You can hear it at Mass. Strong response to "The Lord Be With You". Weaker response to the "Lord have mercy". Even weaker response to the changing antiphon of Responsorial Psalm. Weakest yet, hymns.

    Their response has nothing to do with education. We are not there to "raise them up" nor to "uplift them". We are there to support their singing, knowing that in choosing music that is unfamiliar, we decrease their level of confidence and also how much they will sing.

    It's like a football team. Basic plays can operate like clockwork, but special plays not often used can surprise the other team but also can fail because of lack of familiarity in the presenting team.

    It is all about deciding what to sing and when to sing it, the only education involved is our study and thought.

    And, though this may seem bizarre, what the people think of the music and say about the music HAS to be ignored. Expecting them to be open and welcome it will do nothing but disappoint.

    The only person that needs to be educated by you is the priest. He expects that, otherwise he would choose the music and lead it himself. You present a program to him that will achieve what he wants achieved. You do not work for the people, you work to support him as a priest.


    Yes, you can teach a pig to sing. No, you can't. But maybe you can make them want to sing...think of them standing at the feed trough wishing they could sing....that's full participation for a pig!
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz teachermom24
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Yes, you can teach a pig to sing. No, you can't.

    You can also teach singers to accept slop and dig for truffles. Most will leave the farm, though.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Just for clarification, how can someone who has shut the door to chant because of their false perception of it be open to it. They can not. It is not possible with out education.
    They need to be placed in re-education camps, they need to be reprogrammed.
    This may or may not be our jobs but it is someones job. I for one think we are the best ones to do it.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Actually I take some of that back. The best place would be back in the schools. However the majority of Catholics don't go to Catholic schools they go to public schools where they can not even sing Holiday songs anymore. They have to sing pagan songs only.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    You can also teach singers to accept slop and dig for truffles. Most will leave the farm, though.

    Which is why Catholic musicians in search of secure employment, aside from a decent wage, leave.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Adam Wood
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    But, most Catholic students in public schools do attend CCD programs in their parishes. Perhaps the CCD programs need to encourage more church music education and participation in the children's choirs.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    As usual, TCC, I enjoy your insights, as they are very... Insightful. I have often stated that there are four basic principles that govern whether or not someone will sing: 1. Intrinsic desire to sing, 2. Confidence in ones own ability to sing, 3. Knowledge of the song, 4. Opinion of the song. The general principle is that people will sing if they want to, and they won't if they don't. Much of what we do, aside from providing something more familiar to sing, has little effect on whether or not someone will sing.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago irishtenor
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    @Musicteacher56 my wife actually just started this for our Christmas Eve Mass. Last Year all the songs were happy clappy, this year my wife will be handling the music and it will be a little more reverent. She will now start to have a regular cadence with the kids that will allow us to start to introduce them to the Propers and Chant.
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    That's wonderful. Congrats to your wife for wanting to educate our young in the beauty of true Catholic worship. Kids are sponges and open to change and new things because everything is new to them. Adults resist.
    Thanked by 1donr
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    It's not a matter of education, friends.

    It's exposure.

    Using the word education is just like quoting the latin names of church documents - people's eyes glaze over.

    No one know what polyphony or chant is, so teaching them about it can throw up walls, while letting them hear it without explanation is much more effective.
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    Isn't exposure part of education? I am a music teacher, in addition to being DOM of the parish. I cannot teach polyphony unless I give examples, so exposure and education go hand in hand. And, I began these lessons by playing Palestrina as the students walked into the classroom. Most were curious as to what I was playing.
    Thanked by 2donr CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    No one know what polyphony or chant is, so teaching them about it can throw up walls, while letting them hear it without explanation is much more effective.


    This. Very much this.

    Isn't exposure part of education?

    Of course it is.

    Noel "The Catholic Frogbook" Jones was just pointing out- people do not want to be "educated." If you talk about educating them, they will turn off, tune out, and drop away.

    There was a small window when progressives introduced the euphemism "formation" where (some) people thought that sounded like a spiritual practice or something, and you could trick people into showing up for class. Then everyone figured out what it meant, and no one comes unless you force them.

    TCC's advice, and mine, boils down to: If you want people to learn something, for goodness sakes don't tell them they are about to learn something.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    If you want people to learn something, for goodness sakes don't tell them they are about to learn something.


    What Adam the Wood said or, as Wendi would say, Adam, Darling.

    Teaching and war as professions are all about strategy, strategy developed to make change. Changing people can be done by example or force. When you do it by force it's obvious and you will face resistance not because of your goal but because of the nature of your strategy.

    Carl D. can undoubtedly explain this much better than I.

    We must daily evaluate what we are doing and decide if we are doing what we are doing for the general good or because of something that we want to achieve.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Noel, you gotta get Wendi's monikers straight:
    Her mentor David Andrew is "Darling"
    I'm "Dearest"
    Adam is "Little Joe" (courtesy of me.)
    You are, uh, uh, uh......"Grumpy?"
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